Although this question is addressed to Arlid--I would appreciate any other's opinions: Wouldn't a owner having a vessel that cost several million dollars inspected and certified beyond the voluntary standards? (There are boats being built by members of this list that fall into this catageory. Does not having a certification give a better insurance rating (for Al Golden)? ABYC is a standard which is voluntarily published and established for boat and equiptment design, construction etc. It does not have any enforcement powers or mechanism N.M.M.A Yacht Certification Program--is also a voluntary compliance program, with NMMA staff preforming unannounced visits, but not every vessel is inspected. Most boats built in U S A are to these standards (or should be). Many foreign build vessesl preport to be built to these standards. A pre purchase survey should assure that the vessel adheres to all of these standards, as well as being structurally sound (which as we have seen is often difficult to assertain after the "furniture" is installed. American Bureau of Shipping Standards, Loyds Standards, Loyds Classification or Loyds certification (as pointed out all different levels of inspection during the construction process) and Det Norske Veritas all have far more comprehensive inspection programs with certified surveyors. I assume that these surveyors have a higher level of skill and training than the SAMS type yacht surveyor. Regards, Bob Austin

Bob Austin wrote: > Wouldn't a owner having a vessel that cost several million dollars inspected and > certified beyond the voluntary standards? (There are boats being built by > members of this list that fall into this catageory. Does not having a > certification give a better insurance rating (for Al Golden)? REPLY For the megayachts being built up here in the PNW, class certification is important if the owner plans on charrtering the vessel for part of the year. This is often a practical solution to help offset the cost of ownership. In addition it permits the vessel to be written down as a business with associated deductibles etc. and it keeps the vessel operational in full swing. An idle vessel often deterioates just sitting dockside unused. I'm told that most vessels over 75 feet are usually inspected to some class standard for that reason. Only if the vessel is never intended to be used for commercial charter would it make sense to built only to ABYC standards. Retro fitting such a vessel to class standards would cost too much to justify. > ABYC is a standard which is voluntarily published and established for boat > and equiptment design, construction etc. It does not have any enforcement > powers or mechanism Preccisely why it is not really a "class" standard. ABS, Lloyds 100, DNV are class specifications. In order for a vessel to be certified to any of these standards the blueprints must first be inspected and approved prior to construction commencement. A surveyor approved by that class society must sign off at various stages of construction. And the commissioning must be done according to an approved plan in order for the Certificate to be issued. In the case of Lloyds, they also provide insurance. The only thing ABYC does is provide the consumer with assurance that at least the minimum standards have been met. The caveat here is that it is the manufacturers who jointly form the various committees that formulate the standards. That sometimes means that only a few brands of product are available. Ancor wire is a case in point. The cable is marked ABYC certified so naturally the surveyor will accept it. I am aware of at least two companies that make comparable cable which is UL and CSA certified but not specifically ABYC marine certified. Does that mean that boats wiered with such cable is sub standard. No it doesn't! It only means the surveyor has to do some homework to determine that the wiring is as good as or better than Ancor. For example, Xantrex's newest Prosine 2.0 inverter requires very large cable sizes for any lenght in excess of 5 feet from the battery. Ancor only makes wire up to 4/0 which is less than trhe 250 MCM or 350 MCM called for by the Xantrex engineers in the installation manual. Cobra cable makes locomotive cable which is far superior to the Ancor cable. However, Cobra is not about to spend a lot of money to get marine certification for their cable when the marine business would only represent a small percentage of total sales. (less than 5% is my estimate. ) So technically, a boat wired with Cobra cable is not fully complaint with ABYC but that doesn't mean the boat is substandard in the wiring department. > American Bureau of Shipping Standards, Loyds Standards, Loyds Classification or > Loyds certification (as pointed out all different levels of inspection during > the construction process) and Det Norske Veritas all have far more comprehensive > inspection programs with certified surveyors. I assume that these surveyors > have a higher level of skill and training than the SAMS type yacht surveyor. REPLY That assumption is correct. The only variable would be how diligent the particular surveyor is in applying his skills and knowledge. Another aspect is how skillful is that surveyor in interpreting the standards in the context of the real world. A friend bought a former commercial fishing boat with intentions of operating a charter business. The Coast guard inspector rejected the prop shaft be being 1/16 too small in diameter. The standard diameter of prop shaft for a given horse power in an inspected vessel is given in a table. Another friend told me how his boat shaft was measured by a coast guard inspector. A tape measure is wrapped around the shaft and the circumferrence is divided by "pi" to get diameter. Oh yeah! How about using a micrometer? If that is how the inspection is applied there is a heck of a lot of latitude allowed the inspector. Is that good or bad? I should point out that a Coast Guard inspection and certification is not the same as a class certification. Having one does not automamtically confer status of compliance in the other catagory. For example, the Certification society might have very particular specs for bilge oump capacity wheras a recertification by Coast Guard would simply require that the bilge pump is working. Regards Arild