Discussions useful to passagemakers - AIS - WX - Paravanesetc.
John,
I don't weigh in often, but it's probably time to add my two cents
in response to your request for equipment discussions. I have a
Nordhavn 50 that I am bringing down the coast from the PNW to Long
Beach in three weeks. There, I'm having much extra equipment added
to enhance my long range capability in anticipation of crossing to
Hawaii this summer:
AIS: I have chosen the Furuno F150 full AIS. The full capability is
a definite plus but expensive when compared to the passive units.
One of the most important features is its ability to be displayed on
my Nobeltec display which is our primary navigation aid.
WATERMAKER: I am having the new Sea Recovery Aquamatic Compact 900
gph unit installed. Sea Recovery claims the new unit is almost
operator free. It can go 8000 hours before maintenance is required.
SEA ANCHOR: Ace Sail is manufacturing a Jordan Series Drogue for me
right now. This is a decision that I have agonized about for a while
and could be discussed at length in future threads. The Jordan
Series Drogue is much more expensive than a regular para anchor and
still somewhat unproven. I feel that some sort of sea anchor is just
as important as a life raft. Hopefully, I will never have to use
either one. I will also have some sort of a towable drogue such as
the Gailrider or the Delta Drogue.
DIVE GEAR: I have added quite a bit of dive gear to enhance diving
off the boat. This is not a subject totally appropriate to this
board; however, it will significantly enhance my enjoyment of our
cruises as we work our way across the South Pacific.
SATCOM: I am having an Iridium unit permanently installed for voice
and email communication. My co-captain (brother) feels that we would
be just as well off with a much less expensive portable unit. What
does the PUP board think?
SSB (HF radio): I am not short wave/ham certified; however, I have
used these radios extensively while flying across the Pacific to
Hawaii. Jim Leishman declared that it was the most expensive piece
of gear that got the least amount of use during the around the world
cruise. I think it is important for access to the cruising nets for
convoying and up-to-date local information. I would like input from
the PUP board on the on the usefulness vs cost of the SSB,
particularly in view of the SATCOM.
Phil Eslinger
Flat Earth Nordhavn 50
At 12:38 PM 4/5/2006 -0600, you wrote:
WATERMAKER: I am having the new Sea Recovery Aquamatic Compact 900
Series Drogue is much more expensive than a regular para anchor and
still somewhat unproven. I feel that some sort of sea anchor is just
SATCOM: I am having an Iridium unit permanently installed for voice
and email communication. My co-captain (brother) feels that we would
be just as well off with a much less expensive portable unit. What
does the PUP board think?
SSB (HF radio): I am not short wave/ham certified; however, I have
of gear that got the least amount of use during the around the world
cruise.
Phil Eslinger
The SR watermaker, is not on my list of recommendations. Compact
means tightly packed to me and I hate working on equipment like that.
And I will believe it is maintenance free after proof....
The Jordan Series drogue is not "unproven", it is not popular for
reasons of storage and expense. It is not all that necessary in
moderate storms. But, moderate is not always what comes your way and
it is difficult to switch even if you have a Jordan in reserve if it
is not used first.
SSB equipment is not likely to be used by those who are not "tuned"
to using it. And it is admittedly much more difficult to use than a
Sat Phone. Frankly, I would go for the SSB and Pactor 3 and a
portable, less expensive Iridium hand set, combination.
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Tualatin(Portland), Oregon
SEA ANCHOR: Ace Sail is manufacturing a Jordan
Series Drogue for me right now.
I will also have some sort of a
towable drogue such as
the Gailrider or the Delta Drogue.
A recent issue of Latitude 38 (Sausalito-based sailing
magazine) had a story of a couple who deployed a
parachute anchor in heavy seas when their rudder
broke. I don't recall the exact details, but they had
tremendous difficulties with chafe even though they
had (in their mind) prepared and had chafe gear
aboard. I believe they lost the sea anchor within a
few hours. I also seem to recall Lynn/Larry Pardy
recently published tests with sea anchors in storm
conditions, finding that for many boats, the best
connection was a bridle from the bow and a side or
stern attachment that keeps the boat at a slight angle
to the sea anchor.
What are the "best practices" for preventing chafe?
Where should the attachment point(s) be? When should a
drogue or sea anchor be attached to the bow, and when
to the stern? Is there an acceptable way for a boat
without sails to heave-to?
Peter
www.SeaSkills.com
Warning, I'm about to mount the soap box <VBG>.
The problem with this topic on other lists has been manifold. First, nearly
all the respondents have never used a sea anchor or drogue, and I suspect
that most don't even own either. Second, we keep getting the same dogma
repeated as each inexperienced person passes on his or her favorite war
story or quote from some manual. Just because somebody writes it in a book
does not necessarily make it so! We keep getting sailboat information, much
of which probably does not apply well to our boats, as most trawlers have
much more windage and an entirely different underwater hull shape. And,
finally, there seems to be constant confusion as to the role of the drogue
vs. the sea anchor, possibly driven by terminology disagreement. Now, with
that off my chest, here is my disclaimer. Although we have repeatedly
rigged our chute and drogue for long passages, we have never had to use
either and hope not to. On with my [less than experienced]
thoughts...forgive me for straying from the original question, which really
concerned chafe.
Terminology: We consider a drogue to be something towed behind the boat, to
keep it from yawing and broaching while running before the storm. We
consider a sea anchor or "chute" to be something deployed from the bow to
keep it into the weather while riding out a storm.
Drogues: One of the posts on this thread mentions a Jordan series drogue
and sea anchor in the same sentence. As its name implies, a Jordan is not a
sea anchor; it's a drogue. And IMHO it has insufficient resistance to keep
a trawler (let alone a sailboat) bow into the weather if deployed as a
chute. Aboard AKAMA we carry a Para-anchors of Australia double drogue. We
rig one or both to an 80 foot line that we carry in the lazerette. We doubt
we will ever use it for the following reasons. One, most trawlers have some
sort of flat transom. Krogens have very little hull in the water below the
transom, just enough to keep the hull zincs wet, so it is nearly a canoe
stern below the water and a flat stern above. Nevertheless, we think that
the action of huge waves passing under the boat would raise havoc with stern
slap. We've seen some trawler transoms that are so thin that we think they
would risk punching through or at least cracking, for example, some of the
Choy Lees. Two, if you have hydraulic stabilizers, our experience is that
the last thing you want to do is deploy something that will slow the boat
down to the point where the sea runs faster than the boat. Indeed, when
running before a storm we generally speed up, admittedly, we've only
experienced up to gale force winds, not a serious storm. The stabilizer
vanes get caught in "backwards" water flow, sometimes even when centered,
and yaw the boat. Third, most trawlers have no grinders on the stern (or
any at all for that matter). Once a drogue of any size is deployed in any
sort of sea there is no way to adjust the bridle from side to side (to
assist with steering) or to retrieve it. We carry one of those Chicago
Cutlery "Miracle Knives" and if we need to we would simply cut it away.
Finally, and most importantly, we are concerned that wave action might carry
the drogue or its line into the propeller.
Sea anchors: We carry a 30-foot Para-anchors of Australia chute. This we
think we might use some day and it gets rigged before any long passage. Any
discussion about chutes inevitably includes a post by some well-meaning
person quoting some well intended book on how to deploy the thing off the
bow. We can't think of a more asinine place to be on a power boat in a
storm (or a sailboat for that matter). We have a nylon rode in the port
locker, the bitter end of which has chain on it. Actually, this is our
secondary anchor rode, which is part chain and part rope, turned the wrong
way around. We lead it over the bow roller and outside the boat to the
stern cockpit until the chain part extends about a foot beyond the bow
roller. This we hope will minimize chafe where it leaves the bow. The
chain is wrapped around a heavy cleat and below decks a rod is run through a
link. Ditching it would entail removing the rod. More probably it would
foul and have to be cut. Cutting it away would require someone to go out on
the bow, which we don't plan to ever do, but that is why we only leave a
foot of chain exposed...the Miracle Knife would be used. The nylon rode is
attached to the stanchions along the side of the boat with light cable ties.
In the aft cockpit the rode is piled in figure-of-eight and attached to the
chute. To deploy we would turn to weather (a dangerous maneuver in its own
right) throw it over the side, drift aft, hoping not to broach. We recon
with our windage, our 400 feet of rode would pay out rather rapidly.
As for the length of rode, two wave lengths are consistently mentioned and
books show a nice neat diagram how this is supposed to keep the anchor
parked neatly behind a wave. Bullsh!t! None of the people espousing this
theory could ever have been caught in much of a storm. Our experience is
that the huge waves are very confused, with no consistent distance between
them. Moreover, there are usually very deep breaks between waves through
which the chute could pull, not one nice continuous wave followed by another
some set distance away. Even if there were, nobody we know has the means to
pay out and pull in the sea anchor rode to put the chute nicely behind the
second wave, which leads us to retrieval. Again, conventional wisdom and
writing implies that this is simple. We doubt that even with our tripping
line and float arrangement that we would ever be able to get the damned
thing back aboard, unless we wait for the storm to be completely over before
pushing on...yea' right! Again, the Miracle Knife is our probable solution
to "adjustment and retrieval".
Well, enough ranting. We bought all this stuff because for us, as full-time
cruisers, it is cheap insurance. We've talked to hundreds of other boaties
who have done likewise, none of whom has ever deployed the chute in a
serious sea. But, we have thought through (carefully we hope) the rigging
and deployment issue, including the probability of chafe.
Here's hoping that none of us ever needs to use a drogue or a chute!
Cheers,
Maurice
MV AKAMA
KK 48 Whaleback
(Currently in New Zealand and moving soon to Australia)
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Pisciotta [mailto:peter@seaskills.com]
Sent: Friday, 07 April 2006 03:42
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: [PUP] Storm tactics - sea anchors and such for trawlers?
SEA ANCHOR: Ace Sail is manufacturing a Jordan
Series Drogue for me right now.
I will also have some sort of a
towable drogue such as
the Gailrider or the Delta Drogue.
A recent issue of Latitude 38 (Sausalito-based sailing
magazine) had a story of a couple who deployed a
parachute anchor in heavy seas when their rudder
broke. I don't recall the exact details, but they had
tremendous difficulties with chafe even though they
had (in their mind) prepared and had chafe gear
aboard. I believe they lost the sea anchor within a
few hours. I also seem to recall Lynn/Larry Pardy
recently published tests with sea anchors in storm
conditions, finding that for many boats, the best
connection was a bridle from the bow and a side or
stern attachment that keeps the boat at a slight angle
to the sea anchor.
What are the "best practices" for preventing chafe?
Where should the attachment point(s) be? When should a
drogue or sea anchor be attached to the bow, and when
to the stern? Is there an acceptable way for a boat
without sails to heave-to?
Peter
www.SeaSkills.com
Passagemaking-Under-Power Mailing List
At 07:45 AM 4/7/2006 +1200, you wrote:
Well, enough ranting. We bought all this stuff because for us, as full-time
cruisers, it is cheap insurance. We've talked to hundreds of other boaties
who have done likewise, none of whom has ever deployed the chute in a
serious sea. But, we have thought through (carefully we hope) the rigging
Nunas is correct in most of his comments. To summarize, not so much
his words as the general issues.
The Jordan is a drogue and is not intended as an Anchor. It is
intended to slow a boat down, orient it down the long length into a
breaking wave and keep the boat from being tossed into the trough.
Because of this it may be a poor choice for being deployed from the
bow, unless you want to make way going backwards. If this short
summation is not clear enough then you will benefit from reading the
detailed literature on the Jordan Series Drogue.
I have had chute anchors on some boats and could never figure out a
plan that I was convinced would work in a major storm such that the
gear would not chafe through. Simply put, I was convinced that sooner
or later it would chafe through. One of the problems with a standard
drogue or even any sea anchor is the need to adjust the scope to
changing conditions. This need makes it difficult to rig the gear to
prevent chafe. The best chafe is simply chain and shackles at any
point of wear. The Jordan uses a fixed length system and does not
suffer as much from this problem.
If you deploy a Jordan from the stern, the design is such that the
breaker should pass you by at about 15 knots, rather than the 25-40
knots of the underlying wave. If your stern won't withstand this sort
of impact, then the Jordan MAY not be a suitable choice. However,
this may not be the most important issue. Jordan designed the drogue
PRIMARILY to prevent the boat from being caught broadside AND
pitchpoled. Such waves are infrequent, but the Jordan is designed to
make the boat survive by twisting it into perpendicular alignment
with the wave, to slow the boat down, just so, and allow the wave to
pass on by with minimal impact and therefore damage.
If you will follow along a bit farther, here is the gist of the
argument as I understand it.
If you won't use a parachute anchor, because of all the impediments
to it's use, chafe, difficulty of deployment/whatever, load on the
hull and gear; then you won't have anything out and therefore
anything you use will be SOME improvement. Therefor, deploying a
Jordan from the bow is better than nothing. But, remember you will
not be able to keep way on and it will most likely not keep the bow
into the predominance of the waves. An object which you may have
thought was your primary objective. However, the Jordan should
provide the essential element for which it was designed, namely that
of twisting the boat into straight on alignment with an oncoming
breaking wave and preventing the boat from being rolled and or
pitched into the trough in front of the breaker.
If you read the literature and tests on the Jordan, the INTENT was
that a boat caught even broadside on, would be twisted around and
headed straight on before the actual slam occurs. Remember, the
Jordan drogue is designed to allow the boat to be accelerated by the
approaching wave, such that the difference in speed is about 15
knots, all the while twisting the boat to the optimum alignment with
the breaking wave. It has minimal effect with waves that are not
breaking and this must be kept in mind in understanding it's
paramount usefulness.
There is subtle issue which is really hard to explain, but if the
choice is a damaged stern versus a rolled boat, I would inclined to
take the former than the latter. I suspect that the Jordan Series
Drogue may be just this sort of dilemma.
There are two objectives described here, one is more comfort related
and the other is survival related. I can not resolve these two issues
beyond this level of detail and there are precious few who can simply
because there is so little real world experience to bolster the
arguments. But, this is the best explanation of the issues that I
have been able to muster and it has not been easy. I trust that at
least one of you will get something out of this explanation.
Regards,
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Tualatin(Portland), Oregon
First, nearly
all the respondents have never used a sea anchor or drogue, and I
suspect
that most don't even own either. Second, we keep getting the same
dogma
repeated as each inexperienced person passes on his or her favorite
war
story or quote from some manual. Just because somebody writes it
in a book
does not necessarily make it so! We keep getting sailboat
information, much
of which probably does not apply well to our boats, as most
trawlers have
much more windage and an entirely different underwater hull shape.
And,
finally, there seems to be constant confusion as to the role of the
drogue
vs. the sea anchor, possibly driven by terminology disagreement.
Now, with
that off my chest, here is my disclaimer. Although we have repeatedly
rigged our chute and drogue for long passages, we have never had to
use
either and hope not to.
A pretty reasonable rant, it seems to me. Perhaps some answers or
data for thought can be found (yes, 'nother danged book) here, "Drag
Device Data Base, 4th Edition," ISBN code 1-878832-03-4, by Victor
Shane. Over 100 case histories where drag devices were used and
comments on their efficacy. Yes, most of them involved sail, but it's
real data from real storm usage.
Fair winds and happy bytes, Dave Flory, San Jose, CA., soon Flower
Mound, TX.
Speak softly, study Aikido, & you won't need to carry a big stick!
See my photos @ http://homepage.mac.com/dflory
Maurice, thank you for your spirited discourse on
storm tactics. You make several very good points and
you have provided much food for thought for me.
Although I have a true canoe stern on my boat, I would
be reluctant to use a drogue off the stern and present
the stern to the seas during a storm for no other
reason than I have about 2 1/2 feet more freeboard at
the bow than on the stern. I believe my bow would
handle severe, on coming seas better than the stern.
Therefore, if I were to use anything, it would
probably be a parachute sea anchor off the bow. But
this brings up a couple of questions that maybe you
have thought about.
-
I am concerned about fouling any kind of line in
my prop, especially during storm conditions. In a
severe storm, with your sea anchor deployed, would you
shut the engine down; leave the engine running but out
of gear in idle; or leave the engine running at low
RPM's? -
Conventional wisdom says that you put severe strain
on your rudder if you deploy a sea anchor and let the
boat drift backwards. Most the information is
anecdotal from sailboats, and I suspect that many of
those sailboats that have suffered damage had spade
rudders. You and I have rudders that are attached to
a keel shoe. Do you think that potential rudder
damage with a para anchor is an issue with power
trawlers?
As long as you are answering questions, here's a
couple more!
-
I don't believe you have a wing, get home engine on
AKAMA. How do you address a situation that you get
somewhere if you experience catastrophic power train
malfunction? -
Do you have a stand alone, back up autopilot
aboard or do you have a rebuild kit for your A/P -
Have you heard anything about cruising budgets in
your neck of the world.
Thanks Maurice, I hope to cross paths with you in
about a year.
Patrick
Willard 40PH
ALOHA
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Patrick,
Thanks for jumping in; long time no see. Re your questions:
-
Actually, AKAMA does have a wing engine (Westerbeke 35 HP with 2-blade
Max-prop). You may be remembering that I am of the opinion that a wing
engine would be useless in serious weather, and, therefore, would not be
what I'd fit to a boat. My experience with the wing is that the boat
dog-tracks badly with it and the rudder, though huge for a power boat, is
not very responsive. I used to correspond with the owner of a Seahorse
(Marty Livingston), who lost it off Costa Rica. He related that when he
lost the main in a storm, trying to use the wing was like not having an
engine at all. -
We have only one AP and if it fails we would be in trouble; the only
spare we carry is a spare electric/hydraulic Octopus pump (never had to use
it so far...knock on wood). The previous one, a Coursemaster (Australian)
never failed, although it was not optimum for the boat (too small). The
current one, a Raymarine S2G/ST6000 steers the boat nicely and we hope it
lasts forever. -
On my web site (www.nunas.com) there is a paper under the sidebar title
"Articles" that provides quite a bit of information about the cost of
cruising around SE Asia and parts of the Pacific. It is actually quite
economical to live on a boat around there. Since that was written we have
come to the conclusion that the running costs are not the issue, including
living in marinas (within reason). It's the maintenance cost that is a
killer, and this is sporadic and intermittent. We once went three years
without even a lift-out, but usually go about a year and a half. That,
together with replacing gear keeps us poor!
Cheers,
Maurice
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Gerety [mailto:alohaboat@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, 08 April 2006 07:58
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: Re: [PUP] Storm tactics - sea anchors and such for trawlers?
Maurice, thank you for your spirited discourse on
storm tactics. You make several very good points and
you have provided much food for thought for me.
As long as you are answering questions, here's a
couple more!
-
I don't believe you have a wing, get home engine on
AKAMA. How do you address a situation that you get
somewhere if you experience catastrophic power train
malfunction? -
Do you have a stand alone, back up autopilot
aboard or do you have a rebuild kit for your A/P -
Have you heard anything about cruising budgets in
your neck of the world.
Thanks Maurice, I hope to cross paths with you in
about a year.
Patrick
Willard 40PH
ALOHA
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