Empathy List Archives

R

rayvincent@coxinet.net

Mon, Mar 7, 2022 7:55 PM

We had a citizen storm out of the planning commission meeting and flip the commissions off. City manager wants to ban her from meetings or make her behave. Any thoughts?

Raymond A. Vincent
Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC
1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200
Del City, Oklahoma 73115
405-235-0484
Fax 405-236-3689

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This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you.

We had a citizen storm out of the planning commission meeting and flip the commissions off. City manager wants to ban her from meetings or make her behave. Any thoughts? Raymond A. Vincent Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC 1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200 Del City, Oklahoma 73115 405-235-0484 Fax 405-236-3689 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you.

JK

Jordan, Kenneth

Mon, Mar 7, 2022 8:37 PM

So that's all she did? You cannot ban her permanently from any public meetings without a court order; and just speech (even profanity or slanderous statements) cannot be stopped. If you televise the meeting, it might be possible to have meeting rules matching the FCC rules regarding what can be said on television.

You can have reasonable rules of order for addressing the public body, such as speak for 3 minutes or other rules like that, and failing to comply to the Chair's rules of order, then she could be escorted from that meeting. Flipping off is expression. You cannot even stop her from yelling or cussing at the public body, except possibly some types of words if the meeting are televised.

Just storming out and flipping off the public body, you cannot remove her from the public forum created by allowing her to speak in the first place. All you can do is have reasonable rules of order, and those rules must be adopted by the public body itself, not by the City Manager. And they can only be applied/enforced on a case-by-case basis depending on her behavior at that meeting. Further, every meeting the Open Meeting Act must be "open" to the public, which is another reason you cannot just permanently ban her from the meetings (at least not without a court order). The most you can do is enforce reasonable rules of order based on specific conduct at a specific meeting.

I'd recommend you retain a 1st Amendment legal expert-someone who has actually handled numerous cases before the Federal courts-before trying to shut down speech after allowing persons to address the public body. There is some leeway to not let anyone speak before a deliberative body (case law on that, which is why the State Legislature and Congress can control who can and cannot address them during meetings - but once you permit anyone to stand at the podium and speak at the meeting, you've created a designated public forum. So you can apply reasonable rules of order, but you cannot ban the speech. You cannot even prevent them from slandering the members of the public body, such as alleging they're on the take, etc.

From: rayvincent@coxinet.net rayvincent@coxinet.net
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 1:56 PM
To: OAMA oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Unruly citizen

We had a citizen storm out of the planning commission meeting and flip the commissions off. City manager wants to ban her from meetings or make her behave. Any thoughts?

Raymond A. Vincent
Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC
1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200
Del City, Oklahoma 73115
405-235-0484
Fax 405-236-3689

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE

This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the person to which it is addressed and may contain privileged and confidential information protected by law. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or e-mail, destroy this message and delete any copies held in your electronic files. Unauthorized use and/or re-disclosure may subject you to penalties under applicable state and federal laws.

So that's all she did? You cannot ban her permanently from any public meetings without a court order; and just speech (even profanity or slanderous statements) cannot be stopped. If you televise the meeting, it might be possible to have meeting rules matching the FCC rules regarding what can be said on television. You can have reasonable rules of order for addressing the public body, such as speak for 3 minutes or other rules like that, and failing to comply to the Chair's rules of order, then she could be escorted from that meeting. Flipping off is expression. You cannot even stop her from yelling or cussing at the public body, except possibly some types of words if the meeting are televised. Just storming out and flipping off the public body, you cannot remove her from the public forum created by allowing her to speak in the first place. All you can do is have reasonable rules of order, and those rules must be adopted by the public body itself, not by the City Manager. And they can only be applied/enforced on a case-by-case basis depending on her behavior at that meeting. Further, every meeting the Open Meeting Act must be "open" to the public, which is another reason you cannot just permanently ban her from the meetings (at least not without a court order). The most you can do is enforce reasonable rules of order based on specific conduct at a specific meeting. I'd recommend you retain a 1st Amendment legal expert-someone who has actually handled numerous cases before the Federal courts-before trying to shut down speech after allowing persons to address the public body. There is some leeway to not let anyone speak before a deliberative body (case law on that, which is why the State Legislature and Congress can control who can and cannot address them during meetings - but once you permit anyone to stand at the podium and speak at the meeting, you've created a designated public forum. So you can apply reasonable rules of order, but you cannot ban the speech. You cannot even prevent them from slandering the members of the public body, such as alleging they're on the take, etc. From: rayvincent@coxinet.net <rayvincent@coxinet.net> Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 1:56 PM To: OAMA <oama@lists.imla.org> Subject: [Oama] Unruly citizen We had a citizen storm out of the planning commission meeting and flip the commissions off. City manager wants to ban her from meetings or make her behave. Any thoughts? Raymond A. Vincent Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC 1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200 Del City, Oklahoma 73115 405-235-0484 Fax 405-236-3689 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the person to which it is addressed and may contain privileged and confidential information protected by law. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or e-mail, destroy this message and delete any copies held in your electronic files. Unauthorized use and/or re-disclosure may subject you to penalties under applicable state and federal laws.

R

rayvincent@coxinet.net

Mon, Mar 7, 2022 9:13 PM

Thanks Kenneth. That is sort of my thinking but it is nice to be able to say other municipal attorneys agree.
Ray

From: Jordan, Kenneth
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 2:37 PM
To: rayvincent@coxinet.net ; OAMA
Subject: RE: [Oama] Unruly citizen

So that’s all she did? You cannot ban her permanently from any public meetings without a court order; and just speech (even profanity or slanderous statements) cannot be stopped. If you televise the meeting, it might be possible to have meeting rules matching the FCC rules regarding what can be said on television.

You can have reasonable rules of order for addressing the public body, such as speak for 3 minutes or other rules like that, and failing to comply to the Chair’s rules of order, then she could be escorted from that meeting. Flipping off is expression. You cannot even stop her from yelling or cussing at the public body, except possibly some types of words if the meeting are televised.

Just storming out and flipping off the public body, you cannot remove her from the public forum created by allowing her to speak in the first place. All you can do is have reasonable rules of order, and those rules must be adopted by the public body itself, not by the City Manager. And they can only be applied/enforced on a case-by-case basis depending on her behavior at that meeting. Further, every meeting the Open Meeting Act must be “open” to the public, which is another reason you cannot just permanently ban her from the meetings (at least not without a court order). The most you can do is enforce reasonable rules of order based on specific conduct at a specific meeting.

I’d recommend you retain a 1st Amendment legal expert—someone who has actually handled numerous cases before the Federal courts—before trying to shut down speech after allowing persons to address the public body. There is some leeway to not let anyone speak before a deliberative body (case law on that, which is why the State Legislature and Congress can control who can and cannot address them during meetings – but once you permit anyone to stand at the podium and speak at the meeting, you’ve created a designated public forum. So you can apply reasonable rules of order, but you cannot ban the speech. You cannot even prevent them from slandering the members of the public body, such as alleging they’re on the take, etc.

From: rayvincent@coxinet.net rayvincent@coxinet.net
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 1:56 PM
To: OAMA oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Unruly citizen

We had a citizen storm out of the planning commission meeting and flip the commissions off. City manager wants to ban her from meetings or make her behave. Any thoughts?

Raymond A. Vincent
Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC
1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200
Del City, Oklahoma 73115
405-235-0484
Fax 405-236-3689

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE

This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the person to which it is addressed and may contain privileged and confidential information protected by law. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or e-mail, destroy this message and delete any copies held in your electronic files. Unauthorized use and/or re-disclosure may subject you to penalties under applicable state and federal laws.

Thanks Kenneth. That is sort of my thinking but it is nice to be able to say other municipal attorneys agree. Ray From: Jordan, Kenneth Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 2:37 PM To: rayvincent@coxinet.net ; OAMA Subject: RE: [Oama] Unruly citizen So that’s all she did? You cannot ban her permanently from any public meetings without a court order; and just speech (even profanity or slanderous statements) cannot be stopped. If you televise the meeting, it might be possible to have meeting rules matching the FCC rules regarding what can be said on television. You can have reasonable rules of order for addressing the public body, such as speak for 3 minutes or other rules like that, and failing to comply to the Chair’s rules of order, then she could be escorted from that meeting. Flipping off is expression. You cannot even stop her from yelling or cussing at the public body, except possibly some types of words if the meeting are televised. Just storming out and flipping off the public body, you cannot remove her from the public forum created by allowing her to speak in the first place. All you can do is have reasonable rules of order, and those rules must be adopted by the public body itself, not by the City Manager. And they can only be applied/enforced on a case-by-case basis depending on her behavior at that meeting. Further, every meeting the Open Meeting Act must be “open” to the public, which is another reason you cannot just permanently ban her from the meetings (at least not without a court order). The most you can do is enforce reasonable rules of order based on specific conduct at a specific meeting. I’d recommend you retain a 1st Amendment legal expert—someone who has actually handled numerous cases before the Federal courts—before trying to shut down speech after allowing persons to address the public body. There is some leeway to not let anyone speak before a deliberative body (case law on that, which is why the State Legislature and Congress can control who can and cannot address them during meetings – but once you permit anyone to stand at the podium and speak at the meeting, you’ve created a designated public forum. So you can apply reasonable rules of order, but you cannot ban the speech. You cannot even prevent them from slandering the members of the public body, such as alleging they’re on the take, etc. From: rayvincent@coxinet.net <rayvincent@coxinet.net> Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 1:56 PM To: OAMA <oama@lists.imla.org> Subject: [Oama] Unruly citizen We had a citizen storm out of the planning commission meeting and flip the commissions off. City manager wants to ban her from meetings or make her behave. Any thoughts? Raymond A. Vincent Raymond A. Vincent, PLLC 1919 S. Sunnylane Rd., Suite 200 Del City, Oklahoma 73115 405-235-0484 Fax 405-236-3689 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE This e-mail transmission, and all documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, are being sent by an attorney and may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. This transmission is intended solely for the exclusive use of the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the person to which it is addressed and may contain privileged and confidential information protected by law. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or e-mail, destroy this message and delete any copies held in your electronic files. Unauthorized use and/or re-disclosure may subject you to penalties under applicable state and federal laws.