Mike Whan I started in the sub construction business we had a fairly straightforward standard vessel construction contract that we modified somewhat. Same with a design and engineering contract. In 1993 we were approached by a Saudi Royal Family member who wanted a sub to go aboard his 235' yacht. We sent him a 5 page design and engineering contract and got back a 40 page document from his London based law firm. We spent a ton of money with our lawyers going back and forth between ourselves and our respective attorneys and one of my partners did nothing but deal with the issue for six months. In the end, we did the design and engineering for them and spent $30,000 on the construction contract negotiations and never got the contract for the build. I sent the Saudi a bill for $50,000 of our time and he paid it - which I thought remarkable until I understood that he wasn't done with the relationship and was taking the long term view. To date, we've never been sued and we've never had a client problem that couldn't be solved. The reason is that we have, arguably, the best contracts for a company of our size and I will always be thankful to the Saudi and his law firm for forcing us to spell out every single eventuality. A contract is not a document that frames a law suit, it is an understanding between two parties. At U.S. Submarines we enjoy a small, fragile market niche with virtually no competition. We're lucky, because building custom yachts is a brutally competitive business with razor thin margins and the possibility of economic disaster lurking within every major decision. I can promise you that the guys who are successful pay unremitting attention to purpose and are never complacent. The pirates never last, the companies that do are dedicated to their craft (pun intended) and want to make a living doing something they enjoy without screwing anyone. Surprisingly, I know of just as many yards who have been economically brutalized by erudite, successful, business savvy owners as I do owners who have been screwed by the yards. It's a knife that cuts both ways and a good initial contract and clear communication is the key to preventing the problems. Bruce

At 04:36 PM 1/17/05 -0800, you wrote: >Surprisingly, I know of just as many yards who have been economically >brutalized by erudite, successful, business savvy owners as I do owners >who have been screwed by the yards. It's a knife that cuts both ways and a >good initial contract and clear communication is the key to preventing the >problems. Dead right. Don't get me wrong, I think that your tactics are excellent ones. But you are talking about an American? firm, yourselves and the trouble makers I have seen have been Canadian's. There is a problem here with contract law as it is practiced in various countries. Suing in Canada is a joke as my Canadian friends tell me. A waste of time and money. And yet there are reputable Canadian firms who get tarred with the same brush. Frankly it is a gamble no matter what you do. Mike Capt. Mike Maurice Tualatin(Portland), Oregon