Re: [PUP] Heavy Weather tactics
----- Original Message ----
From: Ken Williams kenw@seanet.com
To: Passagemaking Under Power List passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 9:16:33 AM
Subject: Re: [PUP] Heavy Weather tactics
I must confess that I've never personally seen either a drogue or a sea
anchor, so forgive my rookie questions about them.
I thought that I was a fan of parachute style sea anchors. However a couple of years ago, after doing quite a bit of reading and research, I changed my mind. In my opinion, the downside of a sea anchor is that they are large and cumbersome, they must be deployed from the bow in precarious conditions, and the boat will drift backwards in hazardous seas putting undue strain on the rudder. If you are going to use a sea anchor it is wise to practice deployment in advance in manageable conditions, but it will be necessary to go on deck during big seas to deploy it for real. There is no way to paractice that scenario. Flaking the sea anchor to the stern cockpit is a clever solution. But even the people who sell sea anchors caution that it is necessary to go to the bow to adjust the bridle (angle to seas and length of rode) once it is deployed. Again one is exposed to hazardous seas on a pitching bow. This is doable with caution but not a place I relish to be.
Eventually I became interested in using drogues as a heavy weather tactic. The Jordan Series Drogue seemed to be the answer. No device is perfect and the Series drogue is difficult to deploy and retrieve and it is relatively expensive when compared to other devices. I don't think a drogue is the best solution very every boat. The drogue makes particular sense to me because of the design of my boat. I have a double ended hull, no swim platform, the stern bulkhead in the saloon has relatively small windows, and I have probably the lowest A/B ratio of any trawler in this size range.
I attended the Seattle Boat Show last January. While there, I renewed my acquaintance with Zac from Fiorentino Sea Anchors manufactctured here in SoCal. Is this a conincidence that there is a Zach at ParaAnchor too? Anyway, Fiorentino was introducing their line of drogues they were adding to their range. I think that Fiorentino makes the best engineered sea anchor and Zac related the research and engineering that went into the design of their drogue. They tested a series drogue as a possible design but found that there were a number of problems with the design. They decided on a more traditional drogue design concept. Their introductory price was more than fair and I was convinced. Mine arrived a couple of weeks later. It fits in a valise that is a little larger than a hat box. Fiorentino recommends using a floating line as a tether. I will avoid using my engine when the drogue is deployed. I plan on making an interior "strongback" that will fit across the stern
saloon bulkhead to reinforce the double sliding doors and windows. This will be through bolted in place when conditions merit (which I hope is never).
Did I make the right choice? I don't know, I am not an expert, I'm just trying to make the best decisions. I often lust after a larger boat but I soon realize that with a relatively small passagemaker the equipment (like a drag device) is smaller and easier to handle, the equipment is much less expensive, and a crew of two can handle just about any situation that might arise - except maybe fatigue.
I haven't practiced with the Fiorentino drogue yet, but I will. I am interested to see how this will work out. I also intend to try deploying the drogue off the bow, just to see what happens. Maybe I can talk Ken Williams into helping me with these tests ;-)
Patrick
Willard 40PH
ALOHA
La Paz, MX
They tested a series drogue as a
possible design but found that there were a number of problems with
the design.
Can you be more specific as to what the "number of problems were"?
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Beaverton Oregon(Near Portland)
I just had an interesting discussion with Don Jordan, designer of the Jordan
series drogue.
http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com
I asked him specifically about my boat, describing it as a 100 ton trawler,
with plenty of windage, and a boxy-stern.
My concern has been that the Jordan series drogue is available for boats up
to only 35 tons. Don felt that the 35 ton drogue (180 cones on 370' of line)
would be adequate for my boat. His comment was that there was no data he was
aware of, but that his guess was that it would work just fine.
He had a very interesting response when I asked if bow deployment were
possible, so that the drogue might be used as a sea anchor. Don was highly
opinionated on this topic. He stated that he does not believe
(parachute-style) sea anchors work, or have ever worked. His recommendation,
if I were dead in the water, was that I use the Jordan series drogue
deployed from the stern, and sit stern-to-the wind. I asked whether or not
this meant taking waves over the transom, and he didn't think it would be a
problem.
Note this comment from his website: "... In the more than 15 years that the
drogue has been at sea, no boat has ever been damaged. In particular the
rudder, transom, cockpit and companionway doors have all been unscathed...."
I don't know Don, or his background, beyond what is on the website, and his
website further states that he has no financial interest in the sale of his
drogues.
I'm still not sure what I'll do, but he seemed to make sense, and I sure
like the idea of stern deployment better than bow deployment. One thought is
to ask the makers of the drogue if a slightly larger model is possible...
-Ken Williams
PS to Patrick Gerety ... yes! I'd love to practice deploying one of these
things, and there's no lack of wind in La Paz to keep things interesting.
I just had an interesting discussion with Don Jordan, designer of the Jordan
series drogue.
I have had similar phone and email contact with Don Jordan.
What Ken reports jibes with what I found. All of this was gone over in
the Trawler Forum about 2+ years ago.
I will see if I can find the relevant posts.
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Beaverton Oregon(Near Portland)
I have had similar phone and email contact with Don Jordan.
What Ken reports jibes with what I found. All of this was gone over in
the Trawler Forum about 2+ years ago.
The posts were here on the PUP forum.
The dates are in late December of 2004, Jan 2005. Feb 2005, April 2005
and Perhaps some others.
I will see what can be done to consolidate them.
Mike
The USCG report linked on the front page of the Jordan and Ace Sailmakers
websites concludes that sea anchors should not be used. Further, the report
provides the equations that you can use to spec a series drogue.
< http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pdf/droguecoastguardreport.pdf >
It still sounds like allot of thingamaduggies to deploy and recover, but it
is good to survive.
The loss of the sailboat Churchill is discused in some detail. It seems that
you can still get destroyed by a huge following sea with a series drogue. If
I didn't read it right, please correct me.
Sir Francis Chichester took to running under bare poles in a least one
storm. He improvised a drogue and did well. His windage is less than a 68
foot Nordhavn which has multiple decks and a really big behind. Windage is
as important or more important than displacement. That was the conclusion on
the T&T List vis a vis anchors.
Ron Rogers
Re: Mike Maurice: "... I will see what can be done to consolidate them. ..."
If anyone ever figures how to download the archives from this board (and the
T&T mailing list), let me know. I'd like to have them on my laptop, so that
I have access while offshore, and can easily search through them.
I was successfully able to download them to my computer, but they come down
as a GZ file. I've downloaded several utilities which purport to open GZ
files, but none seem to work. Argh!
If someone has a hint to get me started, email me off the list, at: kenw @
seanet.com
-Ken Williams
I have consolidated the posts that I can find on this Jordan Series
Drogue, into one PDF of about 110 kbytes. It is not edited but if
someone has a place where it can be posted for downloading, I will email
it to them. I don't have a suitable place to post it for downloading.
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Beaverton Oregon(Near Portland)