I've been busy with a Harley-Davidson magazine project, and everyone
else has been away cruising, or something.

I'll be back stirring up things soon but, in the meantime, to start a
discussion thread, ask a question about power catamarans.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Power Catamaran World
http://www.powercatamaranworld.com

On Jan 3, 2009, at 12:20:42 PM, "Georgs Kolesnikovs"
georgs@powercatamaranworld.com wrote:
From:  "Georgs Kolesnikovs" georgs@powercatamaranworld.com
Subject:    Re: [PCW] No recent posts
Date:  January 3, 2009 12:20:42 PM PST
To: "Power Catamaran List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com

I've been busy with a Harley-Davidson magazine project, and everyone
else has been away cruising, or something.

I'll be back stirring up things soon but, in the meantime, to start a
discussion thread, ask a question about power catamarans.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Power Catamaran World
http://www.powercatamaranworld.com

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

I
Has anyone seen Larry Graf's prototype with the asymmetrical hulls and the
single engine?  I would be interested to know what thoughts people have about
this concept.

Tom Green

Very interesting, I hadn't heard of that one.  Here is more info:
http://www.aspenpowercatamarans.com/

I noticed there are new photos up for the Maine Cat P47
http://www.mecat.com/power/powerupdates.htm

Any other new projects out there?

--- On Sat, 1/3/09, tomortho tomortho@aol.com wrote:

Hi Mark,
Take a look at the Thai-Kiwi Marine Cat 36
http://www.thaiboating.com/prod02.html
Geoff Reid.

Quoting Mark mark424x@yahoo.com:

http://www.thaiboating.com
*This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
notify the system manager. Please note that any views or opinions
presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not
necessarily represent those of the company. Finally, the recipient
should check this email and any attachments for the presence of
viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused by
any virus transmitted by this email. Thai-Kiwi Marine Co Ltd.

On 1/3/09 5:05 PM, "Mark" mark424x@yahoo.com wrote:

Fascinating!  I've looked at sailing proas in the past and wondered how
they'd motor.  I guess someone else was wondering the same thing.

A few things I'm curious about:

1. What will heavy weather handling be like?  Balancing two dissimilar
   hulls to track straight in the water under power is one thing, but to have
   them perform predictably and symmetrically in big water with waves coming in
   from different directions...

2. How susceptible will it be to weight distribution/loading issues?  Cats
   are already finicky to load, especially fore/aft, but will these two hulls
   add even more complexity?

3. I can see why they are including bow and stern thrusters.  One of the
   twin-engine cat's big advantages is it's ability to spin in its own length.
   But with just one engine my previous cat handled worse than a monohull at
   low speed.

4. Another inherent cat advantage was propulsion redundancy.  With just a
   single engine that's lost, and people will have to contemplate backup
   systems again.  How about a light outboard with an independent fuel supply
   on the proa hull?  Fishermen could use it for trolling as well.  This is a
   Puget Sound company after all...

5. My new 40' LOA powercat (Maxweld 35) is traditionally configured with
   planing hulls and twin engines.  It has similar dimensions and fuel capacity
   to the 39' Aspen.  Its fuel economy at the Aspen's top speed of around 23
   kts should be close to the Aspen's.  But I can cruise at 30 kts pretty
   easily without much loss of economy, and probably top out well above 40 (who
   cares?).  I doubt that my economy/range will come close to the Aspen's at
   the lower speeds.  I take delivery in March and I'll post my performance
   measurements then.  Here are pics which I've posted in the past:
   http://tinyurl.com/6f9rl5  (the thumbnails don't show, but use the
   back/forward arrows in the pics and you'll see all the pics)

6. The galley forward - even though a cat has a superior ride in the chop,
   not sure how viable that arrangement will be.  A galley up on a cat is
   already pretty high above the water so all motions in all planes get
   amplified.  Will it be safe to cook when underway?

7. Pricing - a cruise ready price of about $600K (39') for an unproven
   design, built in China, in this economy?  I'd expect to see some serious
   discounting for the first few hulls at least.  My boat came all-in (with two
   engines, electronics, extensive upgrades and customizations) at about $400K.
   And I was able to extensively customize it with hydraulic systems,
   electrical upgrades, specialized galley gear, substantial deck
   modifications, davits, etc, etc.  It was built in the U.S.  The hull and
   builder have a long and successful track record.  Granted, it doesn't have
   Burmese teak and a large owner stateroom with a walk-around bed, but it is
   reasonably handsome and sleeps 8 in a pinch.  I understand that it's a bit
   on an apples to oranges comparison - my boat is geared more toward fishing
   here in Alaska while Aspen is a pure cruiser - but I'd look pretty carefully
   to see if there's $200K of additional value in this boat.  There may be, but
   it would be worth confirming.

My comments above notwithstanding, I think it's a brilliant concept, and I'd
love to take one for a spin.

Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska

On Jan 3, 2009, at 7:46:14 PM, "Robert Deering" deering@ak.net wrote:
From:  "Robert Deering" deering@ak.net
Subject:    Re: [PCW] Graf (Aspen), ME Cat, ....
Date:  January 3, 2009 7:46:14 PM PST
To: "PCW List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
On 1/3/09 5:05 PM, "Mark" mark424x@yahoo.com wrote:

Fascinating! I've looked at sailing proas in the past and wondered how
they'd motor. I guess someone else was wondering the same thing.

A few things I'm curious about:

1. What will heavy weather handling be like? Balancing two dissimilar
   hulls to track straight in the water under power is one thing, but to have
   them perform predictably and symmetrically in big water with waves coming in
   from different directions...

2. How susceptible will it be to weight distribution/loading issues? Cats
   are already finicky to load, especially fore/aft, but will these two hulls
   add even more complexity?

3. I can see why they are including bow and stern thrusters. One of the
   twin-engine cat's big advantages is it's ability to spin in its own length.
   But with just one engine my previous cat handled worse than a monohull at
   low speed.

4. Another inherent cat advantage was propulsion redundancy. With just a
   single engine that's lost, and people will have to contemplate backup
   systems again. How about a light outboard with an independent fuel supply
   on the proa hull? Fishermen could use it for trolling as well. This is a
   Puget Sound company after all...

5. My new 40' LOA powercat (Maxweld 35) is traditionally configured with
   planing hulls and twin engines. It has similar dimensions and fuel capacity
   to the 39' Aspen. Its fuel economy at the Aspen's top speed of around 23
   kts should be close to the Aspen's. But I can cruise at 30 kts pretty
   easily without much loss of economy, and probably top out well above 40 (who
   cares?). I doubt that my economy/range will come close to the Aspen's at
   the lower speeds. I take delivery in March and I'll post my performance
   measurements then. Here are pics which I've posted in the past:
   http://tinyurl.com/6f9rl5 (the thumbnails don't show, but use the
   back/forward arrows in the pics and you'll see all the pics)

6. The galley forward - even though a cat has a superior ride in the chop,
   not sure how viable that arrangement will be. A galley up on a cat is
   already pretty high above the water so all motions in all planes get
   amplified. Will it be safe to cook when underway?

7. Pricing - a cruise ready price of about $600K (39') for an unproven
   design, built in China, in this economy? I'd expect to see some serious
   discounting for the first few hulls at least. My boat came all-in (with two
   engines, electronics, extensive upgrades and customizations) at about $400K.
   And I was able to extensively customize it with hydraulic systems,
   electrical upgrades, specialized galley gear, substantial deck
   modifications, davits, etc, etc. It was built in the U.S. The hull and
   builder have a long and successful track record. Granted, it doesn't have
   Burmese teak and a large owner stateroom with a walk-around bed, but it is
   reasonably handsome and sleeps 8 in a pinch. I understand that it's a bit
   on an apples to oranges comparison - my boat is geared more toward fishing
   here in Alaska while Aspen is a pure cruiser - but I'd look pretty carefully
   to see if there's $200K of additional value in this boat. There may be, but
   it would be worth confirming.

My comments above notwithstanding, I think it's a brilliant concept, and I'd
love to take one for a spin.

Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

I appreciate all of you thoughts.  In thinking about it myself, I was
particularly interested in your concerns about how it handles seas with the
asymmetrical hulls.  My understanding of the original proa type cats of
antiquity was that they would alternate directions that they would travel
(switch bow and stern)  to keep the larger hull to windward.  It will be
interesting to see if the design and testing of this boat have  resolved this
potential handling issue in a power cat.  I can imagine that these concerns
have been considered and it will be interesting to see how this design does.
It is a fascinating and innovative idea.  I too would love to have a ride on
one.

Tom Green

see www.bravamarine.com and the attached
simon pickering

From: tomortho tomortho@aol.com
To: Power Catamaran List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com; PCW List power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 2:18:07 PM
Subject: Re: [PCW] Graf (Aspen), ME Cat, ....

On Jan 3, 2009, at 7:46:14 PM, "Robert Deering" deering@ak.net wrote:
From:  "Robert Deering" deering@ak.net
Subject:    Re: [PCW] Graf (Aspen), ME Cat, ....
Date:  January 3, 2009 7:46:14 PM PST
To: "PCW List" power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
On 1/3/09 5:05 PM, "Mark" mark424x@yahoo.com wrote:

Fascinating! I've looked at sailing proas in the past and wondered how
they'd motor. I guess someone else was wondering the same thing.

A few things I'm curious about:

1. What will heavy weather handling be like? Balancing two dissimilar
   hulls to track straight in the water under power is one thing, but to have
   them perform predictably and symmetrically in big water with waves coming in
   from different directions...

2. How susceptible will it be to weight distribution/loading issues? Cats
   are already finicky to load, especially fore/aft, but will these two hulls
   add even more complexity?

3. I can see why they are including bow and stern thrusters. One of the
   twin-engine cat's big advantages is it's ability to spin in its own length.
   But with just one engine my previous cat handled worse than a monohull at
   low speed.

4. Another inherent cat advantage was propulsion redundancy. With just a
   single engine that's lost, and people will have to contemplate backup
   systems again. How about a light outboard with an independent fuel supply
   on the proa hull? Fishermen could use it for trolling as well. This is a
   Puget Sound company after all...

5. My new 40' LOA powercat (Maxweld 35) is traditionally configured with
   planing hulls and twin engines. It has similar dimensions and fuel capacity
   to the 39' Aspen. Its fuel economy at the Aspen's top speed of around 23
   kts should be close to the Aspen's. But I can cruise at 30 kts pretty
   easily without much loss of economy, and probably top out well above 40 (who
   cares?). I doubt that my economy/range will come close to the Aspen's at
   the lower speeds. I take delivery in March and I'll post my performance
   measurements then. Here are pics which I've posted in the past:
   http://tinyurl.com/6f9rl5 (the thumbnails don't show, but use the
   back/forward arrows in the pics and you'll see all the pics)

6. The galley forward - even though a cat has a superior ride in the chop,
   not sure how viable that arrangement will be. A galley up on a cat is
   already pretty high above the water so all motions in all planes get
   amplified. Will it be safe to cook when underway?

7. Pricing - a cruise ready price of about $600K (39') for an unproven
   design, built in China, in this economy? I'd expect to see some serious
   discounting for the first few hulls at least. My boat came all-in (with two
   engines, electronics, extensive upgrades and customizations) at about $400K.
   And I was able to extensively customize it with hydraulic systems,
   electrical upgrades, specialized galley gear, substantial deck
   modifications, davits, etc, etc. It was built in the U.S. The hull and
   builder have a long and successful track record. Granted, it doesn't have
   Burmese teak and a large owner stateroom with a walk-around bed, but it is
   reasonably handsome and sleeps 8 in a pinch. I understand that it's a bit
   on an apples to oranges comparison - my boat is geared more toward fishing
   here in Alaska while Aspen is a pure cruiser - but I'd look pretty carefully
   to see if there's $200K of additional value in this boat. There may be, but
   it would be worth confirming.

My comments above notwithstanding, I think it's a brilliant concept, and I'd
love to take one for a spin.

Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

I appreciate all of you thoughts.  In thinking about it myself, I was
particularly interested in your concerns about how it handles seas with the
asymmetrical hulls.  My understanding of the original proa type cats of
antiquity was that they would alternate directions that they would travel
(switch bow and stern)  to keep the larger hull to windward.  It will be
interesting to see if the design and testing of this boat have  resolved this
potential handling issue in a power cat.  I can imagine that these concerns
have been considered and it will be interesting to see how this design does.
It is a fascinating and innovative idea.  I too would love to have a ride on
one.

Tom Green

Power-Catamaran Mailing List

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of advertisment.JPG]

Bobn, Tom and others--

I've passed on your questions to Larry Graf for comment. When I hear
back, I'll post an update.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Power Catamaran World
http://www.powercatamaranworld.com

On 1/4/09 4:43 AM, "Georgs Kolesnikovs" georgs@powercatamaranworld.com
wrote:

Georgs,

Mulling this proa concept over a bit further has me returning to a question
I've had before:  Why no power trimarans on the market?  The center hull
(vaca) holding the propulsion and two slender 'outrigger' hulls (amas)
providing stability and storage?

Seems to me that would provide balanced steerage due to the symmetrical
design and still provide the other advantages that the Aspen proa boasts.
What are the disadvantages?

Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska