the availability of cats
My wife and I would like to find a boat to live aboard, cruise everything
from the ICW to crossing the Atlantic for a tour of the Med. Alas, we're
having a very difficult time understanding what constitutes "live-aboard"
and "blue water." We like the idea of a Cat, but they seem to be in very
short supply, from the looks of things. Plenty of concept boats - even in
these postings - as can easily be seen by clicking on links. Drawings are
not the same as photos, so we're becoming a bit weary, not to mention leery
about the whole process. We too visited the Annapolis boat show and saw a
slew of boats in the 40 foot range that ranged in price from about $350,000
to over $1 million. Wherein lies the difference? Hard to say from the
looks of things other than more "industrial strength" hatches on the South
African entry. What do we want?
Crossing the ocean in a 40 foot boat seems the height of folly - perhaps
something larger, maybe up to 60 feet?
From the same perspective, having seen 40 foot boats at the Annapolis boat
show, a 40 foot boat is live-aboard at the lowest level. Everybody needs
some place to get away once in a while, and a 40 foot boat with the helm
station essentially an extension of the saloon doesn't offer much get-away
space. Also, I trade stocks for a living - where, other than the helm can I
locate multiple monitors and a PC that has the horsepower to serve my needs
without feeling like I've been consigned to the dungeons of the after hulls;
likewise for my wife who makes her living as a writer? We'd find better
uses for hull cabins for storage than sleeping - no kids, and limited
numbers of guests.
Berth concerns are not our concern. If you're going to cruise then you're
going to anchor most of the time, or accept that a broader beam will provide
a better ride, more interior space, and more livability, and that the higher
cost of a berth is just the cost of living, and get over it. It would seem
that a 60 foot cat with a beam of 15 feet - to fit a berth economically - is
a false economy at the expense of livability, sea-worthiness, smooth ride,
and seems like a poor trade-off. If we wanted a 60 foot boat with a 15 foot
beam, we'd buy a trawler. Like I said, we want to cross oceans, comfortably
and economically, not stick it in a cheap berth and only use the boat once
or twice a year.
Shouldn't a pilot-house be on a separate level from the rest of the boat,
sealed off from the rest of the boat (if possible or desirable)? I don't
mean "up a few steps" but on a separate level. In the Navy, we learned that
night vision required about 30 minutes to acquire, and required that all
passageways be illuminated with red lights. On boats where the pilot-house
is only a few steps up from the saloon, what's to keep stray light from the
saloon making its way to the pilot-house during crossings, and effectively
killing night vision? Why not a separate deck for the pilot-house? That's
a feature that we'd really appreciate!
Fuel efficiency is a given, and cats seem to have that, but, finding a cat
with the necessary fuel carrying capacity seems to be a rare feature in
cats.
Used versus new? Obviously, if we could afford it, a custom design would be
the way to go, but, we can't. If we could afford it, a 151 foot Expedition
trawler would interest us, but there's that money thing again - we're
looking at used as being more economical than new. Like a new car, a new
boat loses a tremendous amount of value just by leaving the pier for the
first time - we'd prefer to not take that loss; leave that for the deep
pocketed bunch. Speaking of which, we'd love the idea of going anywhere in
our boat, the Arctic included! Anything built to make that trip?
Why is it that with so many quality cats being built in Australia and New
Zealand that finding one that has made the passage from there to the states
seems to get lost someplace between the actual passage and the magazine
write-ups? The idea of a magazine devoted to cats that can cut the mustard
seems long overdue. I get "The Power of Catamarans" but it seems to be
almost exclusively devoted to smaller boats, and "big water" seems to be
ignored. Which reminds me: prior to the last Annapolis boat show I read a
log of a cat making the ICW cruise which seemed to choke on two to three
foot chop. We used to have a Renken 25 foot cruiser that crossed the
Chesapeake Bay during numerous small craft warnings (by necessity, not by
choice) where we encountered eight foot chop and waves that the boat handled
almost matter of factly, bobbing like a cork while maintaining 15 knots or
so. Is this too much to expect out of a 40 foot cat, and if it is, why am I
considering a cat at all? I hope that handling seas is a virtue of cats,
not a serious problem.
What are we missing? I'll be very disappointed if we end up buying a 45' to
65' trawler-like boat simply because the availability or the availability of
factual information regarding cats that might meet our needs is simply "not
there." Fewer "we can build you one" and more "here are photos of the line
we're building" would appeal to me a great deal. Are there dealers in the
Chesapeake area that sell cats ocean capable or are they all selling "stay
in the bay on nice days" kind of cats? I can understand that during the
genesis of a new product the problems that manufacturers encounter are
primarily related to meeting the needs of current customers versus meeting
the needs of potential customers, but it would seem that cats have a natural
advantage over mono-hulls in so many ways that "if we build it they will
come" would be a more entrepreneurial approach to finding the market rather
than designing to the narrow interests that a limited number of users seem
to be requesting, such as trailerability. Call me a silly optimist, but
with the appeal of trawlers to retirees and potential retirees, what with
their requirement for "flopper stoppers" and every manner of anti-roll
devices, the cats would have a serious natural advantage - if only someone
would go head to head with these WW II era "victory ship" round-bottomed
trawlers that seem to be so prevalent. Why are our choices in cats so
limited; or are they, and I simply can't find alternatives in cats?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Paul
Reply to Paul Sutton:
If Mr Sutton were to go to our web site he would find a number of power
catamaran designs that have crossed the Pacific on their own bottoms [11 at
the last count] He would find semi raised pilot houses and he would find
very large fuel capacities; large enough in fact to have ranges of two and a
half to three thousand nautical miles. He will see photos of these designs,
boats under construction and links to the builders.
There are boats being built in Nova Scotia, Brazil, Italy and Paraguay.
There is currently an IceBear under construction in China.
The boats are out there if you know where to look.
I hope this helps.
Malcolm Tennant. ARINA MA
Malcolm Tennant Multihull Design Ltd
PO Box 60513 Titirangi,
Auckland 1007
NEW ZEALAND
ph +64 9 817 1988
fax +64 9 817 6080
e-mail malcolm@tennantdesign.co.nz
www.tennantdesign.co.nz
www.catdesigners.com
Hello, I too have been researching such a vessel; we started off with
Trawler styles, looked at the Nordhavn 46 then a few others....
We have now graduated to a Power Cat and did a lot of research and
corresponding with designers (Malcolm Tennant who just answered the inquiry
was one who was extremely helpful - the NewYorker 51 and the IceBear are
beautiful designs .... only thing is that they will run you $850K and/or
more). I agree with the research and advise from Cat designers, owners and
builders...... safety, comfort, efficiencies... all come with a well
designed and built powercat.
Basically, it all comes down to what you can afford..... money will buy you
everything - if you want to spend under 500K on a new cat of any size; you
will have a limited number of choices and in reality they will not cross
oceans or take you to the destinations you described.
So far I believe - now this is only my opinion which is not worth much; but
I like the value, the options, the reputation, the feedback from owners I
have received plus the big bonus - the price........ the Endeavour TC44
seems to be of great value - but it does not fit your criteria....nor ours
when we started - we had to change a lot of our criteria to fit our
budget!!!
I have been researching the Endeavour TrawlerCat 44, the Manta PowerCat 44
and the PDQ41; all offer various pros and cons and are all different than
the next.
I also looked at a very interesting Ocean Going 45' Trawler at Pacific Coast
Boats which you can view at http://www.trawlercatmarine.com/index.html this
one holds a lot of interest to me but again cost is an issue which I believe
will keep me from this item!
Best advise.....Identify what you want to spend, then narrow your search
down to that budget...
We have done that..... so if you want to go offshore, LRC and far off
cruising grounds - then I believe there are a lot of power cats to fit your
needs.....you will only be limited by your budget.
Good luck!!!
Craig Tomash
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Sutton" psutton@nc.rr.com
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 8:54 PM
Subject: [PCW] the availability of cats
My wife and I would like to find a boat to live aboard, cruise everything
from the ICW to crossing the Atlantic for a tour of the Med. Alas, we're
having a very difficult time understanding what constitutes "live-aboard"
and "blue water." We like the idea of a Cat, but they seem to be in very
short supply, from the looks of things. Plenty of concept boats - even in
these postings - as can easily be seen by clicking on links. Drawings are
not the same as photos, so we're becoming a bit weary, not to mention
leery
about the whole process. We too visited the Annapolis boat show and saw a
slew of boats in the 40 foot range that ranged in price from about
$350,000
to over $1 million. Wherein lies the difference? Hard to say from the
looks of things other than more "industrial strength" hatches on the South
African entry. What do we want?
Crossing the ocean in a 40 foot boat seems the height of folly - perhaps
something larger, maybe up to 60 feet?
From the same perspective, having seen 40 foot boats at the Annapolis boat
show, a 40 foot boat is live-aboard at the lowest level. Everybody needs
some place to get away once in a while, and a 40 foot boat with the helm
station essentially an extension of the saloon doesn't offer much get-away
space. Also, I trade stocks for a living - where, other than the helm can
I
locate multiple monitors and a PC that has the horsepower to serve my
needs
without feeling like I've been consigned to the dungeons of the after
hulls;
likewise for my wife who makes her living as a writer? We'd find better
uses for hull cabins for storage than sleeping - no kids, and limited
numbers of guests.
Berth concerns are not our concern. If you're going to cruise then you're
going to anchor most of the time, or accept that a broader beam will
provide
a better ride, more interior space, and more livability, and that the
higher
cost of a berth is just the cost of living, and get over it. It would
seem
that a 60 foot cat with a beam of 15 feet - to fit a berth economically -
is
a false economy at the expense of livability, sea-worthiness, smooth ride,
and seems like a poor trade-off. If we wanted a 60 foot boat with a 15
foot
beam, we'd buy a trawler. Like I said, we want to cross oceans,
comfortably
and economically, not stick it in a cheap berth and only use the boat once
or twice a year.
Shouldn't a pilot-house be on a separate level from the rest of the boat,
sealed off from the rest of the boat (if possible or desirable)? I don't
mean "up a few steps" but on a separate level. In the Navy, we learned
that
night vision required about 30 minutes to acquire, and required that all
passageways be illuminated with red lights. On boats where the
pilot-house
is only a few steps up from the saloon, what's to keep stray light from
the
saloon making its way to the pilot-house during crossings, and effectively
killing night vision? Why not a separate deck for the pilot-house?
That's
a feature that we'd really appreciate!
Fuel efficiency is a given, and cats seem to have that, but, finding a cat
with the necessary fuel carrying capacity seems to be a rare feature in
cats.
Used versus new? Obviously, if we could afford it, a custom design would
be
the way to go, but, we can't. If we could afford it, a 151 foot
Expedition
trawler would interest us, but there's that money thing again - we're
looking at used as being more economical than new. Like a new car, a new
boat loses a tremendous amount of value just by leaving the pier for the
first time - we'd prefer to not take that loss; leave that for the deep
pocketed bunch. Speaking of which, we'd love the idea of going anywhere
in
our boat, the Arctic included! Anything built to make that trip?
Why is it that with so many quality cats being built in Australia and New
Zealand that finding one that has made the passage from there to the
states
seems to get lost someplace between the actual passage and the magazine
write-ups? The idea of a magazine devoted to cats that can cut the
mustard
seems long overdue. I get "The Power of Catamarans" but it seems to be
almost exclusively devoted to smaller boats, and "big water" seems to be
ignored. Which reminds me: prior to the last Annapolis boat show I read a
log of a cat making the ICW cruise which seemed to choke on two to three
foot chop. We used to have a Renken 25 foot cruiser that crossed the
Chesapeake Bay during numerous small craft warnings (by necessity, not by
choice) where we encountered eight foot chop and waves that the boat
handled
almost matter of factly, bobbing like a cork while maintaining 15 knots or
so. Is this too much to expect out of a 40 foot cat, and if it is, why am
I
considering a cat at all? I hope that handling seas is a virtue of cats,
not a serious problem.
What are we missing? I'll be very disappointed if we end up buying a 45'
to
65' trawler-like boat simply because the availability or the availability
of
factual information regarding cats that might meet our needs is simply
"not
there." Fewer "we can build you one" and more "here are photos of the
line
we're building" would appeal to me a great deal. Are there dealers in the
Chesapeake area that sell cats ocean capable or are they all selling "stay
in the bay on nice days" kind of cats? I can understand that during the
genesis of a new product the problems that manufacturers encounter are
primarily related to meeting the needs of current customers versus meeting
the needs of potential customers, but it would seem that cats have a
natural
advantage over mono-hulls in so many ways that "if we build it they will
come" would be a more entrepreneurial approach to finding the market
rather
than designing to the narrow interests that a limited number of users seem
to be requesting, such as trailerability. Call me a silly optimist, but
with the appeal of trawlers to retirees and potential retirees, what with
their requirement for "flopper stoppers" and every manner of anti-roll
devices, the cats would have a serious natural advantage - if only someone
would go head to head with these WW II era "victory ship" round-bottomed
trawlers that seem to be so prevalent. Why are our choices in cats so
limited; or are they, and I simply can't find alternatives in cats?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Paul
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Paul Sutton wrote:
The idea of a magazine devoted to cats that can cut the mustard
seems long overdue. I get "The Power of Catamarans" but it seems to be
almost exclusively devoted to smaller boats, and "big water" seems to be
ignored.
There is a new power-catamaran magazine in the works, with the first
edition issued in January 2007. A formal announcement should be
forthcoming by June.
Thanks for the excellent post!
--Georgs
Georgs Kolesnikovs
Power Catamaran World
http://www.powercatamaranworld.com
Paul, great discussion of the issues. A couple thoughts/questions:
You suggest that "livability, sea-worthiness, smooth ride" is better in a beamier boat. Is that true? I'd think for the same interior area, you'd be better of with slighly longer hulls and less beam. Also I'd think the structural requirements of a wider beam would non-linearly add a lot of weight. Sailing cats need the beam for righting moment to carrry more sail, that doesn't apply to powercats.
In http://www.pdqyachts.com/sail/pdf/SAILdesign06.pdf Peter Melivin says:
"The heavier a cat becomes, the wider each hull needs to be. But performance
improves as the hulls get longer and skinnier. The same holds true for centerline-
to-centerline beam (the overall beam measured from the centerline of each hull).
Long and narrow is faster than short and wide. The narrower you can design the boat (while preserving overall stability) allows the boat to be lighter, faster, have a better motion, and so on."
Secondly, I wonder if too many people spec/buy a passagemaker that don't really need one. I noticed that in Craig's description of his requirements, he said he planned to use a yacht transport service (DockWise) to move his boat from the Caribbean to the Med. When you look at the requirements for long distance open ocean crossings and how infrequently they'll be used, perhaps the numbers would suggest that you are better off with a boat with less range and bulletproofing and spend the money on a more livable boat that can be shipped to the Med or Tahiti or wherever.
Paul Sutton psutton@nc.rr.com wrote: My wife and I would like to find a boat to live aboard, cruise everything
from the ICW to crossing the Atlantic for a tour of the Med. Alas, we're
having a very difficult time understanding what constitutes "live-aboard"
and "blue water." We like the idea of a Cat, but they seem to be in very
short supply, from the looks of things. Plenty of concept boats - even in
these postings - as can easily be seen by clicking on links. Drawings are
not the same as photos, so we're becoming a bit weary, not to mention leery
about the whole process. We too visited the Annapolis boat show and saw a
slew of boats in the 40 foot range that ranged in price from about $350,000
to over $1 million. Wherein lies the difference? Hard to say from the
looks of things other than more "industrial strength" hatches on the South
African entry. What do we want?
Crossing the ocean in a 40 foot boat seems the height of folly - perhaps
something larger, maybe up to 60 feet?
From the same perspective, having seen 40 foot boats at the Annapolis boat
show, a 40 foot boat is live-aboard at the lowest level. Everybody needs
some place to get away once in a while, and a 40 foot boat with the helm
station essentially an extension of the saloon doesn't offer much get-away
space. Also, I trade stocks for a living - where, other than the helm can I
locate multiple monitors and a PC that has the horsepower to serve my needs
without feeling like I've been consigned to the dungeons of the after hulls;
likewise for my wife who makes her living as a writer? We'd find better
uses for hull cabins for storage than sleeping - no kids, and limited
numbers of guests.
Berth concerns are not our concern. If you're going to cruise then you're
going to anchor most of the time, or accept that a broader beam will provide
a better ride, more interior space, and more livability, and that the higher
cost of a berth is just the cost of living, and get over it. It would seem
that a 60 foot cat with a beam of 15 feet - to fit a berth economically - is
a false economy at the expense of livability, sea-worthiness, smooth ride,
and seems like a poor trade-off. If we wanted a 60 foot boat with a 15 foot
beam, we'd buy a trawler. Like I said, we want to cross oceans, comfortably
and economically, not stick it in a cheap berth and only use the boat once
or twice a year.
Shouldn't a pilot-house be on a separate level from the rest of the boat,
sealed off from the rest of the boat (if possible or desirable)? I don't
mean "up a few steps" but on a separate level. In the Navy, we learned that
night vision required about 30 minutes to acquire, and required that all
passageways be illuminated with red lights. On boats where the pilot-house
is only a few steps up from the saloon, what's to keep stray light from the
saloon making its way to the pilot-house during crossings, and effectively
killing night vision? Why not a separate deck for the pilot-house? That's
a feature that we'd really appreciate!
Fuel efficiency is a given, and cats seem to have that, but, finding a cat
with the necessary fuel carrying capacity seems to be a rare feature in
cats.
Used versus new? Obviously, if we could afford it, a custom design would be
the way to go, but, we can't. If we could afford it, a 151 foot Expedition
trawler would interest us, but there's that money thing again - we're
looking at used as being more economical than new. Like a new car, a new
boat loses a tremendous amount of value just by leaving the pier for the
first time - we'd prefer to not take that loss; leave that for the deep
pocketed bunch. Speaking of which, we'd love the idea of going anywhere in
our boat, the Arctic included! Anything built to make that trip?
Why is it that with so many quality cats being built in Australia and New
Zealand that finding one that has made the passage from there to the states
seems to get lost someplace between the actual passage and the magazine
write-ups? The idea of a magazine devoted to cats that can cut the mustard
seems long overdue. I get "The Power of Catamarans" but it seems to be
almost exclusively devoted to smaller boats, and "big water" seems to be
ignored. Which reminds me: prior to the last Annapolis boat show I read a
log of a cat making the ICW cruise which seemed to choke on two to three
foot chop. We used to have a Renken 25 foot cruiser that crossed the
Chesapeake Bay during numerous small craft warnings (by necessity, not by
choice) where we encountered eight foot chop and waves that the boat handled
almost matter of factly, bobbing like a cork while maintaining 15 knots or
so. Is this too much to expect out of a 40 foot cat, and if it is, why am I
considering a cat at all? I hope that handling seas is a virtue of cats,
not a serious problem.
What are we missing? I'll be very disappointed if we end up buying a 45' to
65' trawler-like boat simply because the availability or the availability of
factual information regarding cats that might meet our needs is simply "not
there." Fewer "we can build you one" and more "here are photos of the line
we're building" would appeal to me a great deal. Are there dealers in the
Chesapeake area that sell cats ocean capable or are they all selling "stay
in the bay on nice days" kind of cats? I can understand that during the
genesis of a new product the problems that manufacturers encounter are
primarily related to meeting the needs of current customers versus meeting
the needs of potential customers, but it would seem that cats have a natural
advantage over mono-hulls in so many ways that "if we build it they will
come" would be a more entrepreneurial approach to finding the market rather
than designing to the narrow interests that a limited number of users seem
to be requesting, such as trailerability. Call me a silly optimist, but
with the appeal of trawlers to retirees and potential retirees, what with
their requirement for "flopper stoppers" and every manner of anti-roll
devices, the cats would have a serious natural advantage - if only someone
would go head to head with these WW II era "victory ship" round-bottomed
trawlers that seem to be so prevalent. Why are our choices in cats so
limited; or are they, and I simply can't find alternatives in cats?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Paul
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Mark Long wrote:
Secondly, I wonder if too many people spec/buy a passagemaker that
don't really need one. I noticed that in Craig's description of his
requirements, he said he planned to use a yacht transport service
(DockWise) to move his boat from the Caribbean to the Med. When you
look at the requirements for long distance open ocean crossings and
how infrequently they'll be used, perhaps the numbers would suggest
that you are better off with a boat with less range and
bulletproofing and spend the money on a more livable boat that can
be shipped to the Med or Tahiti or wherever.
A most valid point.
Companies such as Dockwise Yacht Transport are going to change the
face of cruising internationally. The service is getting better and
better and the prices are no longer prohibitive.
So many yachts are starting to use the service that the shame factor
has almost vanished. Now, don't get me wrong. I love long passages on
the ocean, and so do many others; thus, shipping will not appeal to
everyone. Some will even scoff at it.
But you're not chicken if you ship your boat across an ocean, you're smart.
http://www.yacht-transport.com/
A dozen or so PDQs are headed across the Atlantic by yacht transport
next year, and more than one Endeavour is planning a similar
adventure.
--Georgs
Georgs Kolesnikovs
Power Catamaran World
http://www.powercatamaranworld.com