Empathy List Archives

BC

Brooke Clarke

Fri, Sep 2, 2022 8:43 PM

Hi:

My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up
displaying 6:00 most of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong time.
https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic
The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute hand was still frozen at straight up except when
spinning.

A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the
signal.
It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and
laptops/phones) it worked.
https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107
https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer showing 3 Wi-Fi routers

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
axioms:

The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

Hi: My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up displaying 6:00 most of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong time. https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute hand was still frozen at straight up except when spinning. A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the signal. It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and laptops/phones) it worked. https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107 https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer showing 3 Wi-Fi routers -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

GT

Greg Troxel

Sat, Sep 3, 2022 12:37 AM

Brooke Clarke via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com writes:

My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of
erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up displaying 6:00 most
of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong
time.
https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic
The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute
hand was still frozen at straight up except when spinning.

A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that
synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the signal.
It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to
a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and laptops/phones) it worked.
https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107
https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer showing 3 Wi-Fi routers

Do you believe that the wifi signals themselves are causing problems?

Have you checked the alternative hypothesis that the cheesy switch-mode
power supplies powering the wifi access point and everything else (and
internal to those devices to drop 12V or whatever to 5V and 3.3V) are
causing interference at 60 kHz?

If it really is the 2.4 GHz signal, do you think that's getting into the
60 kHz receive chain by some nonlinear element, or getting into other
parts of the circuit, or ?

Greg

Brooke Clarke via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> writes: > My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of > erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up displaying 6:00 most > of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong > time. > https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic > The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute > hand was still frozen at straight up except when spinning. > > A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that > synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the signal. > It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to > a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and laptops/phones) it worked. > https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107 > https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer showing 3 Wi-Fi routers Do you believe that the wifi signals themselves are causing problems? Have you checked the alternative hypothesis that the cheesy switch-mode power supplies powering the wifi access point and everything else (and internal to those devices to drop 12V or whatever to 5V and 3.3V) are causing interference at 60 kHz? If it really is the 2.4 GHz signal, do you think that's getting into the 60 kHz receive chain by some nonlinear element, or getting into other parts of the circuit, or ? Greg

G/

Graham / KE9H

Sat, Sep 3, 2022 11:47 AM

I see a lot of radio noise close to 60 kHz in the vicinity of my WiFi
router, but I suspect it has more to do with the Ethernet and router logic
in an unshielded plastic box than the 2.4 Ghz signals themselves.

Other offenders are harmonics from the 60 Hz flat screen displays and the
video signals driving them.
And the little adaptors that you might use on the back of the flat screen
to convert between various video connectors, that break the shielding
between the cables and the display.
--- Graham

==

On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 8:08 PM Greg Troxel via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

Brooke Clarke via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com writes:

My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of
erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up displaying 6:00 most
of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong
time.
https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic
The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute
hand was still frozen at straight up except when spinning.

A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that
synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the signal.
It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to
a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and laptops/phones) it worked.
https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107
https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer

showing 3 Wi-Fi routers

Do you believe that the wifi signals themselves are causing problems?

Have you checked the alternative hypothesis that the cheesy switch-mode
power supplies powering the wifi access point and everything else (and
internal to those devices to drop 12V or whatever to 5V and 3.3V) are
causing interference at 60 kHz?

If it really is the 2.4 GHz signal, do you think that's getting into the
60 kHz receive chain by some nonlinear element, or getting into other
parts of the circuit, or ?

Greg

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

I see a lot of radio noise close to 60 kHz in the vicinity of my WiFi router, but I suspect it has more to do with the Ethernet and router logic in an unshielded plastic box than the 2.4 Ghz signals themselves. Other offenders are harmonics from the 60 Hz flat screen displays and the video signals driving them. And the little adaptors that you might use on the back of the flat screen to convert between various video connectors, that break the shielding between the cables and the display. --- Graham == On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 8:08 PM Greg Troxel via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > Brooke Clarke via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> writes: > > > My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of > > erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up displaying 6:00 most > > of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong > > time. > > https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic > > The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute > > hand was still frozen at straight up except when spinning. > > > > A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that > > synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the signal. > > It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to > > a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and laptops/phones) it worked. > > https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107 > > https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer > showing 3 Wi-Fi routers > > Do you believe that the wifi signals themselves are causing problems? > > Have you checked the alternative hypothesis that the cheesy switch-mode > power supplies powering the wifi access point and everything else (and > internal to those devices to drop 12V or whatever to 5V and 3.3V) are > causing interference at 60 kHz? > > If it really is the 2.4 GHz signal, do you think that's getting into the > 60 kHz receive chain by some nonlinear element, or getting into other > parts of the circuit, or ? > > Greg > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

SM

S McGrath

Sat, Sep 3, 2022 3:58 PM

It's probably the old standard, fundamental overload. This is where
the RF stage is overloaded with a strong out of band signal which is
sufficiently powerful to overload the receiver - in an old school car
radio listening to Station A, you then drive by Station B which is at
the opposite end of the band and it comes through instead of Station A
as a practical example the signal is sufficiently powerful that enough
gets through to the detector because there is sufficient signal power
to drive the detector stage directly

On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 9:08 PM Greg Troxel via time-nuts
time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:

Brooke Clarke via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com writes:

My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of
erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up displaying 6:00 most
of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong
time.
https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic
The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute
hand was still frozen at straight up except when spinning.

A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that
synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the signal.
It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to
a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and laptops/phones) it worked.
https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107
https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer showing 3 Wi-Fi routers

Do you believe that the wifi signals themselves are causing problems?

Have you checked the alternative hypothesis that the cheesy switch-mode
power supplies powering the wifi access point and everything else (and
internal to those devices to drop 12V or whatever to 5V and 3.3V) are
causing interference at 60 kHz?

If it really is the 2.4 GHz signal, do you think that's getting into the
60 kHz receive chain by some nonlinear element, or getting into other
parts of the circuit, or ?

Greg

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

It's probably the old standard, fundamental overload. This is where the RF stage is overloaded with a strong out of band signal which is sufficiently powerful to overload the receiver - in an old school car radio listening to Station A, you then drive by Station B which is at the opposite end of the band and it comes through instead of Station A as a practical example the signal is sufficiently powerful that enough gets through to the detector because there is sufficient signal power to drive the detector stage directly On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 9:08 PM Greg Troxel via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > Brooke Clarke via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> writes: > > > My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of > > erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up displaying 6:00 most > > of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong > > time. > > https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic > > The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute > > hand was still frozen at straight up except when spinning. > > > > A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that > > synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the signal. > > It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to > > a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and laptops/phones) it worked. > > https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107 > > https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer showing 3 Wi-Fi routers > > Do you believe that the wifi signals themselves are causing problems? > > Have you checked the alternative hypothesis that the cheesy switch-mode > power supplies powering the wifi access point and everything else (and > internal to those devices to drop 12V or whatever to 5V and 3.3V) are > causing interference at 60 kHz? > > If it really is the 2.4 GHz signal, do you think that's getting into the > 60 kHz receive chain by some nonlinear element, or getting into other > parts of the circuit, or ? > > Greg > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

BC

Brooke Clarke

Sat, Sep 3, 2022 10:25 PM

Hi Greg:

I suspect the 2.4 & 5.8 GHz Wi-Fi signal are getting into the WWVB receiver because it probably is not designed to shunt
them.
You might think of it as out of band jamming.

Need to come up with an antenna for LF centered on 6o kHz but with a wider band that the clock uses to see what's there.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
axioms:

The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

-------- Original Message --------

Brooke Clarke via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com writes:

My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of
erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up displaying 6:00 most
of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong
time.
https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic
The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute
hand was still frozen at straight up except when spinning.

A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that
synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the signal.
It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to
a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and laptops/phones) it worked.
https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107
https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer showing 3 Wi-Fi routers

Do you believe that the wifi signals themselves are causing problems?

Have you checked the alternative hypothesis that the cheesy switch-mode
power supplies powering the wifi access point and everything else (and
internal to those devices to drop 12V or whatever to 5V and 3.3V) are
causing interference at 60 kHz?

If it really is the 2.4 GHz signal, do you think that's getting into the
60 kHz receive chain by some nonlinear element, or getting into other
parts of the circuit, or ?

Greg

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

Hi Greg: I suspect the 2.4 & 5.8 GHz Wi-Fi signal are getting into the WWVB receiver because it probably is not designed to shunt them. You might think of it as out of band jamming. Need to come up with an antenna for LF centered on 6o kHz but with a wider band that the clock uses to see what's there. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke https://www.PRC68.com axioms: 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works. 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs. -------- Original Message -------- > Brooke Clarke via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> writes: > >> My La Crosse UltrAtomic Clock was replaced by the factory because of >> erratic behavior. The replacement clock ended up displaying 6:00 most >> of the time and occasionally spinning hands and stopping at the wrong >> time. >> https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic >> The hour hand came loose, hence the 6 o'clock reading. But the minute >> hand was still frozen at straight up except when spinning. >> >> A friend got a La Crosse S841047 Wireless Forecast Station that >> synchronizes to WWVB and it had a problem locking to the signal. >> It turns out this problem was caused by Wi-Fi signals. When moved to >> a location removed from Wi-Fi (routers and laptops/phones) it worked. >> https://prc68.com/I/Weather.shtml#S84107 >> https://prc68.com/I/AgilentE4404B.shtml#Fig_29 <- spectrum analyzer showing 3 Wi-Fi routers > Do you believe that the wifi signals themselves are causing problems? > > Have you checked the alternative hypothesis that the cheesy switch-mode > power supplies powering the wifi access point and everything else (and > internal to those devices to drop 12V or whatever to 5V and 3.3V) are > causing interference at 60 kHz? > > If it really is the 2.4 GHz signal, do you think that's getting into the > 60 kHz receive chain by some nonlinear element, or getting into other > parts of the circuit, or ? > > Greg > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

O

Oz-in-DFW

Sun, Sep 4, 2022 5:59 PM

On 9/3/2022 6:47 AM, Graham / KE9H via time-nuts wrote:

I suspect it has more to do with the Ethernet and router logic
in an unshielded plastic box

I'd suspect the switching power supplies (wall wart and on-board) first.

Oz (N1OZ in DFW)

On 9/3/2022 6:47 AM, Graham / KE9H via time-nuts wrote: > I suspect it has more to do with the Ethernet and router logic > in an unshielded plastic box I'd suspect the switching power supplies (wall wart and on-board) first. Oz (N1OZ in DFW)

time-nuts@lists.febo.com

WWVB \/=\/ Wi-Fi