FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.
TimeNuts:
I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this (A17)
is undocumented (as no repairable) I am of course trying to work my way
around it to see if the defect is findable.
Any A17 boards loose out there, or even better, documentation?
I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
expect.
Trace is some where up off crt but with vertical coils disconnected, still
no horizontal line.
With no drives connected to H & V coils, dim spot in center. Spot moves well
in both axis with low voltage DC applied.
However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the
instrument without the GUI user interface?
I seem to recall some discussion of raw data dumps turned into useful
measurements.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
Lester Veenstra via time-nuts writes:
I assume you mean HP-5372A and not 5732A ?
I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
expect.
The 5372 uses a weird video-format, 19KHz horizontal and 60Hz vertical,
but it might be possible to find a LCD panel which can do that.
There are two bits of video, "half intensity" and "full intensity", so
a color panel would be required.
However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the
instrument without the GUI user interface?
I've never quite gotten the hang of HPIB with the HP5372, the HPIB
is very geared towards moving the raw binary data, and not very
much towards "remote front-panel".
You can get a bitmap of the screen using "INTERFACE;PSOURCE,DISPLAY;PRINT",
but it is not particularly fast and comes with gratis PCL escapes, but it
does work.
If you dump the raw measurements, that's precisely what you get, and you will
need to do all the processing, math and plotting yourself.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
I assume you mean HP-5372A ---Yes, of course. Mind not fully in control
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
Lester,
All I can find is the PN 2090-0209 for the whole assembly.
Dave
VE7HR
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 7:29 AM Lester Veenstra via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
TimeNuts:
I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this (A17)
is undocumented (as no repairable) I am of course trying to work my way
around it to see if the defect is findable.
Any A17 boards loose out there, or even better, documentation?
I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
expect.
Trace is some where up off crt but with vertical coils disconnected, still
no horizontal line.
With no drives connected to H & V coils, dim spot in center. Spot moves
well
in both axis with low voltage DC applied.
However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of
the
instrument without the GUI user interface?
I seem to recall some discussion of “raw data” dumps turned into useful
measurements.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
--
72 de Dave
VE7HR
"You can get a bitmap of the screen using "INTERFACE;PSOURCE,DISPLAY;PRINT",
but it is not particularly fast and comes with gratis PCL escapes, but it
does work."
Interesting, I will look into it as a way to get a starting point, atleast
for initial tests and diadnostics
"If you dump the raw measurements, that's precisely what you get, and you
will
need to do all the processing, math and plotting yourself.:
Well in the world of Linux/Python, processing, math and plotting, these are
not really big difficulties
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
-----Original Message-----
From: Poul-Henning Kamp [mailto:phk@phk.freebsd.dk]
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: Lester Veenstra
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.
Lester Veenstra via time-nuts writes:
I assume you mean HP-5372A and not 5732A ?
I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
expect.
The 5372 uses a weird video-format, 19KHz horizontal and 60Hz vertical,
but it might be possible to find a LCD panel which can do that.
There are two bits of video, "half intensity" and "full intensity", so
a color panel would be required.
However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of
the
instrument without the GUI user interface?
I've never quite gotten the hang of HPIB with the HP5372, the HPIB
is very geared towards moving the raw binary data, and not very
much towards "remote front-panel".
You can get a bitmap of the screen using "INTERFACE;PSOURCE,DISPLAY;PRINT",
but it is not particularly fast and comes with gratis PCL escapes, but it
does work.
If you dump the raw measurements, that's precisely what you get, and you
will
need to do all the processing, math and plotting yourself.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Lester,
Might that be a 5372A? 😉
I have it’s brother, the 5371A. I turn it on every few months to make sure it’s still working. I’m going to be away for at least a week but will look for my documentation when I return. My 5371A is on the disposal list as I start my downsizing.
Steve
WB0DBS
On Jun 28, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
TimeNuts:
I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this (A17)
is undocumented (as no repairable) I am of course trying to work my way
around it to see if the defect is findable.
Any A17 boards loose out there, or even better, documentation?
I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
expect.
Trace is some where up off crt but with vertical coils disconnected, still
no horizontal line.
With no drives connected to H & V coils, dim spot in center. Spot moves well
in both axis with low voltage DC applied.
However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the
instrument without the GUI user interface?
I seem to recall some discussion of “raw data” dumps turned into useful
measurements.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Yes, but no schematics visible.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Dave Miller
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 11:31 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.
Lester,
All I can find is the PN 2090-0209 for the whole assembly.
Dave
VE7HR
Steve:
I probably will be reduced to stealing the two assemblies from a 71 to go into the 72
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
I have a 5372A, and way back when I got it, I of course looked for the
manual and think I got the pdf. As I recall, this was from the era where
HP still provided full "real" manuals with all the schematics etc. The
exception sometimes is if the entire display is an OEM unit, treated as
a single component, and minimally documented. I don't recall much of the
guts, as it's been a lot of years since I saw the inside.
Do you have the regular manual? Is the display an OEM unit, or actually
HP-made? If it's all HP, then it seems the schematics should be around
somewhere, unless maybe accidentally left out of the printing somehow.
Ed
Lester,
I think looking at the parts list in the Service manual from Artek it’s a bought out all in one unit. If I recall the BOM has one line item.
Have you checked with Walter at Sphere? He has the next PN in the sequence which is a Sony Color display. Or check with Newscope for a LCD replacement.
My new to me 5372A has a bright screen but I noticed it glitched a few times yesterday. The size changed for an instant a couple of time but other wise is working.
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 28, 2020, at 5:50 PM, ed breya eb@telight.com wrote:
I have a 5372A, and way back when I got it, I of course looked for the manual and think I got the pdf. As I recall, this was from the era where HP still provided full "real" manuals with all the schematics etc. The exception sometimes is if the entire display is an OEM unit, treated as a single component, and minimally documented. I don't recall much of the guts, as it's been a lot of years since I saw the inside.
Do you have the regular manual? Is the display an OEM unit, or actually HP-made? If it's all HP, then it seems the schematics should be around somewhere, unless maybe accidentally left out of the printing somehow.
Ed
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Ed: Like many cards and parts in this unit; Not field repairable, so no
schematics or parts list. I do have the "full" maintenance manual.
It appears to be a OEM Taiwan "Part", the CRT and driver board.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of ed
breya
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 5:25 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.
I have a 5372A, and way back when I got it, I of course looked for the
manual and think I got the pdf. As I recall, this was from the era where
HP still provided full "real" manuals with all the schematics etc. The
exception sometimes is if the entire display is an OEM unit, treated as
a single component, and minimally documented. I don't recall much of the
guts, as it's been a lot of years since I saw the inside.
Do you have the regular manual? Is the display an OEM unit, or actually
HP-made? If it's all HP, then it seems the schematics should be around
somewhere, unless maybe accidentally left out of the printing somehow.
Ed
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Dave: I have a "not working, parts only" unit coming.
I will see if A17 is working on that unit.
If I get one working, I think I can signal trace to the problem unit, using the good one as reference
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of VE7HR
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 9:01 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.
Lester,
I think looking at the parts list in the Service manual from Artek it’s a bought out all in one unit. If I recall the BOM has one line item.
Have you checked with Walter at Sphere? He has the next PN in the sequence which is a Sony Color display. Or check with Newscope for a LCD replacement.
My new to me 5372A has a bright screen but I noticed it glitched a few times yesterday. The size changed for an instant a couple of time but other wise is working.
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 28, 2020, at 5:50 PM, ed breya eb@telight.com wrote:
I have a 5372A, and way back when I got it, I of course looked for the manual and think I got the pdf. As I recall, this was from the era where HP still provided full "real" manuals with all the schematics etc. The exception sometimes is if the entire display is an OEM unit, treated as a single component, and minimally documented. I don't recall much of the guts, as it's been a lot of years since I saw the inside.
Do you have the regular manual? Is the display an OEM unit, or actually HP-made? If it's all HP, then it seems the schematics should be around somewhere, unless maybe accidentally left out of the printing somehow.
Ed
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Lester,
I had this problem with the 5372A at work. As others have noted,
documentation of the CRT unit is for sure leaving a lot to wish for when
comparing how well the rest of the unit is documented. We could however
fairly quickly see the problem, and it turned out that a capacitor had
let out it's grey smoke. So, we replaced it and it fired up and worked.
Took care of a little trimming and it went out the lab again. The CRT
unit is fairly standard as for monochrome CRT goes, so nothing very
advanced. I usually do not service CRTs but me and my colleague did not
found it very challenging in the end. One just needs to be careful with
voltages. It was a fair bit of unscrewing to "get to it" as I recall, so
both top and bottom lid had to be popped, as well as the side lid which
hides screws.
Besides the CMOS-battery, the CRT failure is the only other service I've
had to do to the 5372As.
The "GUI" of the 5372A leaves a few things to desire, but it has it's
good points too. The GPIB command structure may be daunting at first,
but if one really reads the programming manual, your really get to learn
how everything is processed from the hardware bits, because the
preferred interface just dumps one of a number of subsets of data
register read-outs, and all the processing one needs to do it explained
in detail. It also becomes apparent that a sneak-feature is that 100 ps
resolution may be possible to support by replacing the interpolator boards.
If I had the time, I would do a modern hardware to grab data on the
fast-port connectors and dump them out over Ethernet. This would be the
way to keep the counter operating continuously with fast data gathering,
but without being limited to the 8192 samples long memory, which when
full being processed by the 68k processor before another run could be
triggered. Offboarding that the existing CPU would be used to set the
instrument up, and then all the data is gathered and processed in
somewhat more modern hardware.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-06-28 16:22, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts wrote:
TimeNuts:
I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this (A17)
is undocumented (as no repairable) I am of course trying to work my way
around it to see if the defect is findable.
Any A17 boards loose out there, or even better, documentation?
I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
expect.
Trace is some where up off crt but with vertical coils disconnected, still
no horizontal line.
With no drives connected to H & V coils, dim spot in center. Spot moves well
in both axis with low voltage DC applied.
However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the
instrument without the GUI user interface?
I seem to recall some discussion of “raw data” dumps turned into useful
measurements.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Magnus:
Thanks for the advice. As a long time ham (1962 Tech and commercial RTO tickets), when one of the rites of passage was taking discarded Vacuum tube TVs and turning them into CW transmitters, the dangers of HV are well known. Particularly what lurks under that anode feed through clip on the crt envelope. Or learning not to grab the plate cap on a 6146 when using a cathode keyed rig.. (Only did that once)
On my 5372A, both horiz and Vert deflection drives do not look like what I would expect, particularly with the coils disconnected.
That is why I am hoping the 5371 (arriving today) may give me a starting point.
As an aside, does the 5372A offer any direct measurement capability that the TAPR TICC does not (with sufficient software post processing of course)
I would like to get it going, as a point of personal pride ( I love cheeep, not working, for parts only deals), but having a TICC, should I let this project simmer on a low burner?
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 5:24 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.
Hi Lester,
I had this problem with the 5372A at work. As others have noted,
documentation of the CRT unit is for sure leaving a lot to wish for when
comparing how well the rest of the unit is documented. We could however
fairly quickly see the problem, and it turned out that a capacitor had
let out it's grey smoke. So, we replaced it and it fired up and worked.
Took care of a little trimming and it went out the lab again. The CRT
unit is fairly standard as for monochrome CRT goes, so nothing very
advanced. I usually do not service CRTs but me and my colleague did not
found it very challenging in the end. One just needs to be careful with
voltages. It was a fair bit of unscrewing to "get to it" as I recall, so
both top and bottom lid had to be popped, as well as the side lid which
hides screws.
Besides the CMOS-battery, the CRT failure is the only other service I've
had to do to the 5372As.
The "GUI" of the 5372A leaves a few things to desire, but it has it's
good points too. The GPIB command structure may be daunting at first,
but if one really reads the programming manual, your really get to learn
how everything is processed from the hardware bits, because the
preferred interface just dumps one of a number of subsets of data
register read-outs, and all the processing one needs to do it explained
in detail. It also becomes apparent that a sneak-feature is that 100 ps
resolution may be possible to support by replacing the interpolator boards.
If I had the time, I would do a modern hardware to grab data on the
fast-port connectors and dump them out over Ethernet. This would be the
way to keep the counter operating continuously with fast data gathering,
but without being limited to the 8192 samples long memory, which when
full being processed by the 68k processor before another run could be
triggered. Offboarding that the existing CPU would be used to set the
instrument up, and then all the data is gathered and processed in
somewhat more modern hardware.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-06-28 16:22, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts wrote:
TimeNuts:
I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this (A17)
is undocumented (as no repairable) I am of course trying to work my way
around it to see if the defect is findable.
Any A17 boards loose out there, or even better, documentation?
I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
expect.
Trace is some where up off crt but with vertical coils disconnected, still
no horizontal line.
With no drives connected to H & V coils, dim spot in center. Spot moves well
in both axis with low voltage DC applied.
However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the
instrument without the GUI user interface?
I seem to recall some discussion of “raw data” dumps turned into useful
measurements.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Hi Lester,
The 5372A excels in a field where we usually do not go, "high" speed
signals. It can time-tag events every 75 ns (in fast mode, 100 ns in
normal mode) if needed, and it can also do hardware accelerated
histograms. Valuable skills for some tasks. Some have the FFT option.
For normal time-nuts work, you can often use a TAPR TICC and TimeLab to
do most of "our" exercises much more convenient than using the 5372A. To
some degree tha 5372A is old and arcane, but it still find it's uses and
you still can use it as a 200 ps resolution counter, which beat a bunch
of other options. The TAPR TICC has however higher resolution and is
therefore very useful.
The CRT module should not be too challenging to an old tube-ham like
yourself. I had to replace a capacitor. Some diodes looked like they had
been running hot, but they where still operational. I also had
deflection problems, but once the retrace oscillator started operating
things fell into place.
73 de SA0MAD
On 2020-06-30 15:33, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts wrote:
Magnus:
Thanks for the advice. As a long time ham (1962 Tech and commercial RTO tickets), when one of the rites of passage was taking discarded Vacuum tube TVs and turning them into CW transmitters, the dangers of HV are well known. Particularly what lurks under that anode feed through clip on the crt envelope. Or learning not to grab the plate cap on a 6146 when using a cathode keyed rig.. (Only did that once)
On my 5372A, both horiz and Vert deflection drives do not look like what I would expect, particularly with the coils disconnected.
That is why I am hoping the 5371 (arriving today) may give me a starting point.
As an aside, does the 5372A offer any direct measurement capability that the TAPR TICC does not (with sufficient software post processing of course)
I would like to get it going, as a point of personal pride ( I love cheeep, not working, for parts only deals), but having a TICC, should I let this project simmer on a low burner?
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 5:24 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5732A operation with no CRT display.
Hi Lester,
I had this problem with the 5372A at work. As others have noted,
documentation of the CRT unit is for sure leaving a lot to wish for when
comparing how well the rest of the unit is documented. We could however
fairly quickly see the problem, and it turned out that a capacitor had
let out it's grey smoke. So, we replaced it and it fired up and worked.
Took care of a little trimming and it went out the lab again. The CRT
unit is fairly standard as for monochrome CRT goes, so nothing very
advanced. I usually do not service CRTs but me and my colleague did not
found it very challenging in the end. One just needs to be careful with
voltages. It was a fair bit of unscrewing to "get to it" as I recall, so
both top and bottom lid had to be popped, as well as the side lid which
hides screws.
Besides the CMOS-battery, the CRT failure is the only other service I've
had to do to the 5372As.
The "GUI" of the 5372A leaves a few things to desire, but it has it's
good points too. The GPIB command structure may be daunting at first,
but if one really reads the programming manual, your really get to learn
how everything is processed from the hardware bits, because the
preferred interface just dumps one of a number of subsets of data
register read-outs, and all the processing one needs to do it explained
in detail. It also becomes apparent that a sneak-feature is that 100 ps
resolution may be possible to support by replacing the interpolator boards.
If I had the time, I would do a modern hardware to grab data on the
fast-port connectors and dump them out over Ethernet. This would be the
way to keep the counter operating continuously with fast data gathering,
but without being limited to the 8192 samples long memory, which when
full being processed by the 68k processor before another run could be
triggered. Offboarding that the existing CPU would be used to set the
instrument up, and then all the data is gathered and processed in
somewhat more modern hardware.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-06-28 16:22, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts wrote:
TimeNuts:
I have a HP 5732A with a defective CRT driver board. Since this (A17)
is undocumented (as no repairable) I am of course trying to work my way
around it to see if the defect is findable.
Any A17 boards loose out there, or even better, documentation?
I see good H and V sync inputs as well as the ZMod (Video data) into the
board, bur the drive for the two deflection coils is not what I would
expect.
Trace is some where up off crt but with vertical coils disconnected, still
no horizontal line.
With no drives connected to H & V coils, dim spot in center. Spot moves well
in both axis with low voltage DC applied.
However, it occurs to me; Does anyone have HPIB code that allows use of the
instrument without the GUI user interface?
I seem to recall some discussion of “raw data” dumps turned into useful
measurements.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
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Looking back at the OP, it appears the display is at least partially
working, since there is some HV to light a dim spot on screen. I don't
know what this display looks like inside, but imagine it's one or two
small boards mounted open-frame on the CRT mechanical assembly, and
connected to the instrument by one or two cable/connector assemblies. It
should be possible to remove the whole thing onto a bench, and run it
out in the open for better access.
The first thing to do is close inspection, looking for any obvious
problems like puffy or leaky capacitors and burnt parts, loose/broken
connections, and possibly fuses open. Power supply problems are the most
likely culprits, so if you can figure out the internal power
distribution at least somewhat, you can make some measurements. These
kind of units likely run on a single bulk supply at a standard voltage
like +12 (most likely since most magnetic raster CRTs use 12V heaters)
or +24, and you should be able to find out from the schematics for the
rest of the system.
Are the signals in the interconnections labeled? If so, the power should
be identified, and also try to figure out what each signal is supposed
to do. You already know the sync and video, etc, but also look for
anything else like an enable or standby signal. What I'm getting at here
is that depending on the overall supply architecture, when the 5372A is
in standby (keeping the OCXO on) it could be that a lot of stuff is
actually powered, but disabled. Related to this, is there a GPIB or
other command that can turn off the display and lock out the front panel
when in remote-only mode? If there is some form of on/off provision, a
signal failure here could shut it down even if the rest is OK.
There are lots of possibilities, but it narrows it down a lot if you can
proof the supplies and external controls.
Ed
Magnus;
Thanks. The one thing, I think I know, is that the defection coils seem to work as expect. That was from testing with a low voltage variable supply.
I have the TAPR TICC talking to TimeLab, as a free running ASCII source, but the TICC documentation is a bit cryptic. I will address the "Nuts" with some specific questions soon. First need to upload the new software.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 11:09 AM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Hi Lester,
The 5372A excels in a field where we usually do not go, "high" speed
signals. It can time-tag events every 75 ns (in fast mode, 100 ns in
normal mode) if needed, and it can also do hardware accelerated
histograms. Valuable skills for some tasks. Some have the FFT option.
For normal time-nuts work, you can often use a TAPR TICC and TimeLab to
do most of "our" exercises much more convenient than using the 5372A. To
some degree tha 5372A is old and arcane, but it still find it's uses and
you still can use it as a 200 ps resolution counter, which beat a bunch
of other options. The TAPR TICC has however higher resolution and is
therefore very useful.
The CRT module should not be too challenging to an old tube-ham like
yourself. I had to replace a capacitor. Some diodes looked like they had
been running hot, but they where still operational. I also had
deflection problems, but once the retrace oscillator started operating
things fell into place.
73 de SA0MAD
Ed:
I see what appear to be good voltages from the mothor board into the A17
video driver board, that is Gnd, +12VDC, V Sync, HSync, and video
(Intensity)
Have a possibly good A17 board, on the bench along with a CRT, removed from
instrument.
Am testing voltages, waveforms, and Electrolytic Cap values for base line.
It functions with just +12V drive from bench supply. I have a raster scan
that varies in intensity with voltage level (0-5v) applied to video input.
Have two more (not good) boards, with some known bad caps, that then can
then be repaired to the baseline. Will then try A17 and CRT on the 5372A
itself.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of ed
breya
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 4:40 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FW: HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Looking back at the OP, it appears the display is at least partially
working, since there is some HV to light a dim spot on screen. I don't
know what this display looks like inside, but imagine it's one or two
small boards mounted open-frame on the CRT mechanical assembly, and
connected to the instrument by one or two cable/connector assemblies. It
should be possible to remove the whole thing onto a bench, and run it
out in the open for better access.
The first thing to do is close inspection, looking for any obvious
problems like puffy or leaky capacitors and burnt parts, loose/broken
connections, and possibly fuses open. Power supply problems are the most
likely culprits, so if you can figure out the internal power
distribution at least somewhat, you can make some measurements. These
kind of units likely run on a single bulk supply at a standard voltage
like +12 (most likely since most magnetic raster CRTs use 12V heaters)
or +24, and you should be able to find out from the schematics for the
rest of the system.
Are the signals in the interconnections labeled? If so, the power should
be identified, and also try to figure out what each signal is supposed
to do. You already know the sync and video, etc, but also look for
anything else like an enable or standby signal. What I'm getting at here
is that depending on the overall supply architecture, when the 5372A is
in standby (keeping the OCXO on) it could be that a lot of stuff is
actually powered, but disabled. Related to this, is there a GPIB or
other command that can turn off the display and lock out the front panel
when in remote-only mode? If there is some form of on/off provision, a
signal failure here could shut it down even if the rest is OK.
There are lots of possibilities, but it narrows it down a lot if you can
proof the supplies and external controls.
Ed
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and follow the instructions there.
The repair bench is up and successful on repairing the A17 video driver
boards. This involved replacing bad caps.
If anyone has a bad A17 board, particularly ones with obvious blown
(literally) caps, I would be happy to repair and bench test.
No cost other than send it to me with a prepaid, pre printed USPS return
label.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
Hi Lester,
Good to hear your progress.
So, I gather that you managed to successfully repair it, and it was a
capacitor issue that I also had experienced.
Which caps did fail for you? I think I recall a 50 uF bipolar cap.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2020-07-05 17:51, Lester Veenstra via time-nuts wrote:
The repair bench is up and successful on repairing the A17 video driver
boards. This involved replacing bad caps.
If anyone has a bad A17 board, particularly ones with obvious blown
(literally) caps, I would be happy to repair and bench test.
No cost other than send it to me with a prepaid, pre printed USPS return
label.
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Magnus:
The suspects were not hard to locate, leaking black goo. I did measure the actual values of most of the larger electrolytics on the A17, for future reference. On two boards, C414, 3300 mfd 35 vdc had to be replaced with new 3300 mfd 50 vdc units. One board had a good C414 with only in place a 4.7 mfd component. Replaced this also with 3300 mfd 50 vdc.
One board also needed C406, 450 mfd 50V replaced.
Now all three boards,on bench, with just 12Vdv applied produce a nice raster , intensity controllable with variable 0-5 vdc on video input.
Waiting on some female pins to arrive to make up a jumper cable from the mother board to an external A17/CRT for final test before reassembling the system.
Certainly not as exciting as bring Cesium Beam standards back to life, but I do like to keep the old boat anchors glowing, even if they only have a single vacuum tube. HI .
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2020 3:33 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-5372A and HP-5372A operation with no CRT display.
Hi Lester,
Good to hear your progress.
So, I gather that you managed to successfully repair it, and it was a
capacitor issue that I also had experienced.
Which caps did fail for you? I think I recall a 50 uF bipolar cap.
Cheers,
Magnus
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:42:48 -0400, you wrote:
Certainly not as exciting as bring Cesium Beam standards back to life, but I do like to keep the old boat anchors glowing, even if they only have a single vacuum tube. HI .
As the instructor at an RCA seminar said, "I like those glass NPN
devices with the light inside so you can tell they're on."
Gary Woods O- K2AHC Public keys at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic, or get 0x1D64A93D via keyserver
fingerprint = E2 6F 50 93 7B C7 F3 CA 1F 8B 3C C0 B0 28 68
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Hi Magnus:
You are, of course right; For a ham, the video board repair was trivial. I now have three working boards, one reinstalled in my HP-5372A.
So, of course, now I have the out of cal message, traceable to the RAM battery failure. I know this has been discussed a number of times before, but without a search function in The time-nuts Archives, I will take the easy way out, and ask you, or any one else willing to contribute.
The maintenance manual I have is an Adobe PDF image that was never OCRed, so it also is not searchable. I have not been able to find the BATTERY.
So where is it, and are there any tricks to replacing it?
Once replaced, which set of alignment steps are needed to get the instrument back to a basic time and frequency functionality?
Appreciate the help:
Lester B Veenstra K1YCM MØYCM W8YCM 6Y6Y
lester@veenstras.com
452 Stable Ln (HC84 RFD USPS Mail)
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.336826 N 78.982287 W (Google)
GPS: 39.33682 N 78.9823741 W (GPSDO)
Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell +1-304-790-9192
Jamaica cell: +1-876-456-8898
Hi Lester,
On 2020-07-29 16:22, Lester Veenstra wrote:
Hi Magnus:
You are, of course right; For a ham, the video board repair was trivial. I now have three working boards, one reinstalled in my HP-5372A.
While I do not found it natural that I am right, I am happy that my
hunch was correct. Really great to head
So, of course, now I have the out of cal message, traceable to the RAM battery failure. I know this has been discussed a number of times before, but without a search function in The time-nuts Archives, I will take the easy way out, and ask you, or any one else willing to contribute.
I did just comment on that actually, so it's just weeks back.
The maintenance manual I have is an Adobe PDF image that was never OCRed, so it also is not searchable. I have not been able to find the BATTERY.
So where is it, and are there any tricks to replacing it?
It was a fairly straightforward procedure to replace it, it sits on the
CPU board.
Once replaced, which set of alignment steps are needed to get the instrument back to a basic time and frequency functionality?
I did the basics, see Adjustments in chapter 3 of manual. I ended not
have to do anything to the interpolator so I stopped there. It was all
very basic and not particularly costly time-wise, at least to my
recollection.
I dug out the service manual file, and it was not where I expected, but
that was good because I found a bunch of stuff gone missing. :)
Anyway, just caring to replace with correct battery and then run through
the procedures was manageable and not very heavy work. Very few parts of
this design requires tuning, and if so only slight. It's the OCXO
(10811) if one wants to have fun (and you know I do).
One of the features of this device which may be curious to know, is that
it was among the first (HP5371A it's sibling was earlier for sure) to
use linear regression for frequency estimation. This way before the
counters that would give rise to delta and omega counter naming. So,
setting it up can give improved quick frequency measures.
Cheers,
Magnus