great-loop@lists.trawlering.com
Cruising America's Great Loop and other inland routes
View all threadsRe: Diesel vs gas (Skipper Bob)
Greg,
We just completed the Great Loop in our 1986 Carver Mariner. We
traveled 6,724 statute miles, used 8,724 US gallons of gasoline at an
average of $1.99 per gallon. We used 1.30 gallons per mile and spent
$17,348.47 for fuel. Our average cruising speed was 8.79 statute miles
per hour (per GPS) for 765.3 engine hours (we tried to maintain 10
statute miles per hour in open waters -- about the same speed as many
Trawlers). We traveled an average of 40.75 miles per day, spent 165
days cruising and lived aboard 260 days over three boating seasons.
We got an estimate to repower our Carver with diesels and it was well
over $40,000. We agree with you, that all things being equal, gasoline
is less expensive unless you plan full time cruising and live aboard
life style. And yes, we had to have a new long block installed in
Florida ($7.000) and a little less than $5,000 for a new transmission,
oil cooler, starter, etc. on the other engine 130 miles from home at the
northern end of the Chesapeake Bay.
One important consideration that you didn't mention is that we had and
used the capability to put the Carver up on plane and make 17 to 19
knots to get out of bad weather whereas Trawlers have no option but to
tuff it out.
We are Skipper Bob's shinning example of how to blow the cruising budget
-- at least on fuel. Our point is, don't give up on doing the America's
Great Loop Cruise just because you don't own or can't afford a diesel
powered Trawler.
John and Judy Gill
Two J's V, a 36 ft Carver Mariner
AGLCA Loopers
---============
GHNutley@aol.com wrote:
Skipper Bob,
First allow me to thank you and compliment you on all the superb work you
have done for boating enthusiasts. I admire you and respect your opinions
(well, most of the time).
In your recent comment about gas vs. diesel, I believe you don't quite get
what is on most novice and planning Great Loopers minds, I for one.
Is a diesel engine more thrifty that a gas engine? Yes, without a doubt.
Are diesel engines more durable? Again, yes.
Are the economics of doing the Great Loop in a diesel powered boat better
than gas? Well ... uh .... maybe
Let me make a comparision to illustrate what I mean. Two boats: a 36'
Krogen Manatee and a Carver 36' Mariner, relatively similar boats. I chose the
first eight boats of these types that popped up on Yachtworld.com.
Krogen Manatee - average year 1986.125 - cost cost $157,587.50
Carver Mariner - average year 1985.875 - average cost $66,475.00
So, a Carver costs $91,112.50 less than the Krogen.
OK, let's assume for simplicity's sake gas and diesel fuel cost the same @
$2.00/gal.
Krogen gets 5.57 mpg, the Carver would get about 1.1 mpg (going the same
speed). Great Loop = 6,000 miles. Therefore, the Krogen would burn 1,077.2
gallons for a cost of $2,154.40. OK, and the Carver would burn 5,454.5 gallons
at a cost of $10,909.00. Difference = $8,754.60.
That would bring the Carver's price advantage down to $82,357.90
Now, let's assume all living, locking and docking expenses would be the same
for both boats. OK, so gas engines don't last as long as diesels. Fair
enough. Let's replace both engines on the Carver somewhere "along the line". I
don't think a cost of $50,000.00 (which is liberal) is out of line.
Price advantage for Carver = $ 32,357.90
So, two boat owner's leave to do The Loop .. one in a Krogen Manatee, the
other in a Carver Mariner. About a year later they return. The guy with the
Krogen either has to sell his boat or find a job, because he is broke. While
the Carver owner has enough money to "do it all over again".
Am I terribly wrong in my thought process, or what?
Greg
GHNutley@aol.com (mailto:GHNutley@aol.com)
William and list,
Bill makes some valid points -- most Trawlers are singel screw (one
engine) vs the twin 454 gas Carvers. However the Carver's are known for
their great displacement speed hulls and twin engines do have an
advantage if one engine quits. Our friends with their 39 ft Avenger
with twin 250 Perkins diesels has had not one but two engine fires (so
much for safety and thank God for the Haylon system).
We have a comparison article of our Carver and the Avenger which
appeared in the America's Great Loop Cruisers Association newsletter The
Great Loop Link where the statistics of these two semi displacement
hulls are compared over 3,558 miles on the Loop --which we will send to
anyone interested.
John and Judy Gill
Two J's V, a 36 ft Carver Mariner
AGLCA Loopers
---======
William Schleuse wrote:
Greg,
The twin gas engine Carver of your example may be just the ticket for some
boaters doing the loop, for any one of several reasons including price,
speed ,etc., but IMHO, your economic comparison is flawed, as you are
conflating and confusing SEVERAL mostly independent variables. You are not
just comparing gas vs. diesel, but displacement hull vs. semi-displacement
hull, single vs. twin, and last but not least, two boats built to quite
different price points in the market when new, and this is reflected in
rather different maintenance costs and depreciation. Each has its place and
each may serve some purposes well. Incidentally, you also neglect two other
variables which are very important to many of us, safety and reliability.
If a gas-powered boat serves your purposes and makes a trip possible, go for
it, but first ask yourself why so many non-novices prefer to tie up more
money in a diesel-powered boat.
Best regards,
Bill Schleuse
m/v LIBERTY
----- Original Message -----
From: GHNutley@aol.com
To: great-loop@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 5:02 PM
Subject: GL: Re: Diesel vs gas (Skipper Bob)
Skipper Bob,
First allow me to thank you and compliment you on all the superb work you
have done for boating enthusiasts. I admire you and respect your opinions
(well, most of the time).
In your recent comment about gas vs. diesel, I believe you don't quite get
what is on most novice and planning Great Loopers minds, I for one.
Is a diesel engine more thrifty that a gas engine? Yes, without a doubt.
Are diesel engines more durable? Again, yes.
Are the economics of doing the Great Loop in a diesel powered boat better
than gas? Well ... uh .... maybe
Let me make a comparision to illustrate what I mean. Two boats: a 36'
Krogen Manatee and a Carver 36' Mariner, relatively similar boats. I
chose the
first eight boats of these types that popped up on Yachtworld.com.
Krogen Manatee - average year 1986.125 - cost cost $157,587.50
Carver Mariner - average year 1985.875 - average cost $66,475.00
So, a Carver costs $91,112.50 less than the Krogen.
OK, let's assume for simplicity's sake gas and diesel fuel cost the same
@
$2.00/gal.
Krogen gets 5.57 mpg, the Carver would get about 1.1 mpg (going the same
speed). Great Loop = 6,000 miles. Therefore, the Krogen would burn
1,077.2
gallons for a cost of $2,154.40. OK, and the Carver would burn 5,454.5
gallons
at a cost of $10,909.00. Difference = $8,754.60.
That would bring the Carver's price advantage down to $82,357.90
Now, let's assume all living, locking and docking expenses would be the
same
for both boats. OK, so gas engines don't last as long as diesels. Fair
enough. Let's replace both engines on the Carver somewhere "along the
line". I
don't think a cost of $50,000.00 (which is liberal) is out of line.
Price advantage for Carver = $ 32,357.90
So, two boat owner's leave to do The Loop .. one in a Krogen Manatee, the
other in a Carver Mariner. About a year later they return. The guy with
the
Krogen either has to sell his boat or find a job, because he is broke.
While
the Carver owner has enough money to "do it all over again".
Am I terribly wrong in my thought process, or what?
Greg
GHNutley@aol.com (mailto:GHNutley@aol.com)
Skipper Bob,
First allow me to thank you and compliment you on all the superb work you
have done for boating enthusiasts. I admire you and respect your opinions
(well, most of the time).
In your recent comment about gas vs. diesel, I believe you don't quite get
what is on most novice and planning Great Loopers minds, I for one.
Is a diesel engine more thrifty that a gas engine? Yes, without a doubt.
Are diesel engines more durable? Again, yes.
Are the economics of doing the Great Loop in a diesel powered boat better
than gas? Well ... uh .... maybe
Let me make a comparision to illustrate what I mean. Two boats: a 36'
Krogen Manatee and a Carver 36' Mariner, relatively similar boats. I chose the
first eight boats of these types that popped up on Yachtworld.com.
Krogen Manatee - average year 1986.125 - cost cost $157,587.50
Carver Mariner - average year 1985.875 - average cost $66,475.00
So, a Carver costs $91,112.50 less than the Krogen.
OK, let's assume for simplicity's sake gas and diesel fuel cost the same @
$2.00/gal.
Krogen gets 5.57 mpg, the Carver would get about 1.1 mpg (going the same
speed). Great Loop = 6,000 miles. Therefore, the Krogen would burn 1,077.2
gallons for a cost of $2,154.40. OK, and the Carver would burn 5,454.5 gallons
at a cost of $10,909.00. Difference = $8,754.60.
That would bring the Carver's price advantage down to $82,357.90
Now, let's assume all living, locking and docking expenses would be the same
for both boats. OK, so gas engines don't last as long as diesels. Fair
enough. Let's replace both engines on the Carver somewhere "along the line". I
don't think a cost of $50,000.00 (which is liberal) is out of line.
Price advantage for Carver = $ 32,357.90
So, two boat owner's leave to do The Loop .. one in a Krogen Manatee, the
other in a Carver Mariner. About a year later they return. The guy with the
Krogen either has to sell his boat or find a job, because he is broke. While
the Carver owner has enough money to "do it all over again".
Am I terribly wrong in my thought process, or what?
Greg
GHNutley@aol.com (mailto:GHNutley@aol.com)
Terribly wrong, perhaps not in your thought process but certainly in
your comparison! You're comparing similar circumstances until you get to
the very end. One owner sells, the other doesn't - that invalidates your
comparison.
Make it a true comparison: the value of each boat at the end of the
cruise. What the owners do about it doesn't matter - you have to compare
apples to apples - and you gratuitously changed the facts with the
assumption that the owner of one boat had to sell to find a job because
he is broke and the other owner kept his to cruise again!
Parenthetically, if the one owner were broke and needed a job, he
probably wouldn't have bought the Krogen (or any other boat) to begin with!
GHNutley@aol.com wrote:
So, two boat owner's leave to do The Loop .. one in a Krogen Manatee, the
other in a Carver Mariner. About a year later they return. The guy with the
Krogen either has to sell his boat or find a job, because he is broke. While
the Carver owner has enough money to "do it all over again".
Am I terribly wrong in my thought process, or what?
--
+++++++++++++++ Using Mozilla Thunderbird +++++++++++++++
Bob McLeran and Judy Young Manatee Cove Marina
M/V Sanderling Patrick Air Force Base
Hampton 35 Trawler Melbourne, Florida
Greg,
The twin gas engine Carver of your example may be just the ticket for some
boaters doing the loop, for any one of several reasons including price,
speed ,etc., but IMHO, your economic comparison is flawed, as you are
conflating and confusing SEVERAL mostly independent variables. You are not
just comparing gas vs. diesel, but displacement hull vs. semi-displacement
hull, single vs. twin, and last but not least, two boats built to quite
different price points in the market when new, and this is reflected in
rather different maintenance costs and depreciation. Each has its place and
each may serve some purposes well. Incidentally, you also neglect two other
variables which are very important to many of us, safety and reliability.
If a gas-powered boat serves your purposes and makes a trip possible, go for
it, but first ask yourself why so many non-novices prefer to tie up more
money in a diesel-powered boat.
Best regards,
Bill Schleuse
m/v LIBERTY
----- Original Message -----
From: GHNutley@aol.com
To: great-loop@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 5:02 PM
Subject: GL: Re: Diesel vs gas (Skipper Bob)
Skipper Bob,
First allow me to thank you and compliment you on all the superb work you
have done for boating enthusiasts. I admire you and respect your opinions
(well, most of the time).
In your recent comment about gas vs. diesel, I believe you don't quite get
what is on most novice and planning Great Loopers minds, I for one.
Is a diesel engine more thrifty that a gas engine? Yes, without a doubt.
Are diesel engines more durable? Again, yes.
Are the economics of doing the Great Loop in a diesel powered boat better
than gas? Well ... uh .... maybe
Let me make a comparision to illustrate what I mean. Two boats: a 36'
Krogen Manatee and a Carver 36' Mariner, relatively similar boats. I
chose the
first eight boats of these types that popped up on Yachtworld.com.
Krogen Manatee - average year 1986.125 - cost cost $157,587.50
Carver Mariner - average year 1985.875 - average cost $66,475.00
So, a Carver costs $91,112.50 less than the Krogen.
OK, let's assume for simplicity's sake gas and diesel fuel cost the same
@
$2.00/gal.
Krogen gets 5.57 mpg, the Carver would get about 1.1 mpg (going the same
speed). Great Loop = 6,000 miles. Therefore, the Krogen would burn
1,077.2
gallons for a cost of $2,154.40. OK, and the Carver would burn 5,454.5
gallons
at a cost of $10,909.00. Difference = $8,754.60.
That would bring the Carver's price advantage down to $82,357.90
Now, let's assume all living, locking and docking expenses would be the
same
for both boats. OK, so gas engines don't last as long as diesels. Fair
enough. Let's replace both engines on the Carver somewhere "along the
line". I
don't think a cost of $50,000.00 (which is liberal) is out of line.
Price advantage for Carver = $ 32,357.90
So, two boat owner's leave to do The Loop .. one in a Krogen Manatee, the
other in a Carver Mariner. About a year later they return. The guy with
the
Krogen either has to sell his boat or find a job, because he is broke.
While
the Carver owner has enough money to "do it all over again".
Am I terribly wrong in my thought process, or what?
Greg
GHNutley@aol.com (mailto:GHNutley@aol.com)
--which we will send to anyone interested.
JJ,
I'd be more interested in what caused the fires.
Bill
I too would be interested in what caused the fires
Dick Schroder
-----Original Message-----
From: great-loop-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:great-loop-bounces@lists.samurai.com]On Behalf Of
cooke_w@bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:48 PM
To: TrawlerWorld GreatLoop
Subject: Re: GL: Diesel vs gas (Skipper Bob)
--which we will send to anyone interested.
JJ,
I'd be more interested in what caused the fires.
Bill
Judy & John Gill twojscom@quadnet.net wrote:
However the Carver's are known for
their great displacement speed hulls and twin engines do have an
advantage if one engine quits.
Ed asks: I believe you meant to say planing hulls, didn't you?
I doubt there's anything displacement or even semi-displacement about any of the Carver models. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Ed
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Ed,
You are corrected -- the 36 ft Carver Mariner and its younger cousins
the 32 and 33 ft Mariners are also noted for their great displacement
hull SPEEDS and deep keels. They track very well at slow speeds and do
not wander much at all. I do not know if this is true with the new Euro
models???
John
---=
EdL wrote:
Judy & John Gill twojscom@quadnet.net wrote:
However the Carver's are known for
their great displacement speed hulls and twin engines do have an
advantage if one engine quits.
Ed asks: I believe you meant to say planing hulls, didn't you?
I doubt there's anything displacement or even semi-displacement
about any of the Carver models. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Ed
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John - I guess I'll have to go look and see. Thanks for the education. - Ed
Judy & John Gill twojscom@quadnet.net wrote:Ed,
You are corrected -- the 36 ft Carver Mariner and its younger cousins the 32 and 33 ft Mariners are also noted for their great displacement hull SPEEDS and deep keels. They track very well at slow speeds and do not wander much at all. I do not know if this is true with the new Euro models???
John
---=
EdL wrote:
Judy & John Gill twojscom@quadnet.net wrote:
However the Carver's are known for
their great displacement speed hulls and twin engines do have an
advantage if one engine quits.
Ed asks: I believe you meant to say planing hulls, didn't you?
I doubt there's anything displacement or even semi-displacement about any of the Carver models. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Ed
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