Empathy List Archives

KR

Kurt Reno

Tue, Jan 20, 2004 2:31 AM

Hi all
My boat in nearing completion and I have a big question to ask of all. There
is a big boat show in Cleveland this week and I have two months to launch. I
would like to go up and look at stuff but I am afraid that I am dumb when I
comes to electronics and charts. I have tried to follow many of the posts on
electronics but I get lost when folks use a lot of abbreviations and letters
to identify hardware and communications devices. What I do understand is to
expensive.
My intentions are to tow my boat to southern Florida and launch for a trip up
the eastern seaboard, up the Hudson, up the Erie, Oswego into Lake Ontario.

From there through the Trent and Severen, Georgian Bay, North Channel, then

Lake Michigan to The Trawler Fest in Manitowoc WI. I will be gone from March
20th to August 21st. Come hell or low water, I am going to go.

Right now I have completely redone my boat from top to bottom but all I have
for navigation is a 20 year old VHF radio a 20 year old autopilot a compass,
a stop watch and the large print Rand McNally. I am quite certain that I am
capable of navigating the entire route with only this equipment but I would
like to add a little more.

I want to have charts and minimal electronics to make the navigation a bit
easier. My question is what is the minimum and the cheapest route to go at
this point. Start talking in multiple boat units and you have gone to far.
Think minimalist when you answer this question. Thanks to all in advance.

The boat is a 26' Permacraft trawler. I has a 33 hp Perkins 4.99, full
displacement, full keel with fully protected prop and rudder. Draft is 2'10",
beam is 9', displacement is 8000lbs. Electronic will be in a fully protected
pilot house. Boat is fully paid for and I have no intentions of borrowing.

Hi all My boat in nearing completion and I have a big question to ask of all. There is a big boat show in Cleveland this week and I have two months to launch. I would like to go up and look at stuff but I am afraid that I am dumb when I comes to electronics and charts. I have tried to follow many of the posts on electronics but I get lost when folks use a lot of abbreviations and letters to identify hardware and communications devices. What I do understand is to expensive. My intentions are to tow my boat to southern Florida and launch for a trip up the eastern seaboard, up the Hudson, up the Erie, Oswego into Lake Ontario. >From there through the Trent and Severen, Georgian Bay, North Channel, then Lake Michigan to The Trawler Fest in Manitowoc WI. I will be gone from March 20th to August 21st. Come hell or low water, I am going to go. Right now I have completely redone my boat from top to bottom but all I have for navigation is a 20 year old VHF radio a 20 year old autopilot a compass, a stop watch and the large print Rand McNally. I am quite certain that I am capable of navigating the entire route with only this equipment but I would like to add a little more. I want to have charts and minimal electronics to make the navigation a bit easier. My question is what is the minimum and the cheapest route to go at this point. Start talking in multiple boat units and you have gone to far. Think minimalist when you answer this question. Thanks to all in advance. The boat is a 26' Permacraft trawler. I has a 33 hp Perkins 4.99, full displacement, full keel with fully protected prop and rudder. Draft is 2'10", beam is 9', displacement is 8000lbs. Electronic will be in a fully protected pilot house. Boat is fully paid for and I have no intentions of borrowing.

MM

m/v MOJO

Tue, Jan 20, 2004 3:49 AM

I want to have charts and minimal electronics to make the navigation a

bit

easier. My question is what is the minimum and the cheapest route to go

at

this point. Start talking in multiple boat units and you have gone to

far.

Think minimalist when you answer this question. Thanks to all in advance.

Buy yourself a set of BBA chart kits for the areas you plan to cruise -
shouldn't be more than a few hundred dollars for the entire lot. Use a
piece of masking tape cut in the shape of an arrow and move it along the
chart every half hour or so to keep track of your position as you pass
markers, etc. I've done the ICW several times this way before getting into
electronic charting (Nobeltec VNS) and found it worked quite well.

Ray B.
m/v MOJO

> I want to have charts and minimal electronics to make the navigation a bit > easier. My question is what is the minimum and the cheapest route to go at > this point. Start talking in multiple boat units and you have gone to far. > Think minimalist when you answer this question. Thanks to all in advance. > Buy yourself a set of BBA chart kits for the areas you plan to cruise - shouldn't be more than a few hundred dollars for the entire lot. Use a piece of masking tape cut in the shape of an arrow and move it along the chart every half hour or so to keep track of your position as you pass markers, etc. I've done the ICW several times this way before getting into electronic charting (Nobeltec VNS) and found it worked quite well. Ray B. m/v MOJO

BD

Bob Davies

Tue, Jan 20, 2004 4:24 AM

Kurt Reno wrote:
My intentions are to tow my boat to southern Florida and launch for a trip
up
the eastern seaboard, up the Hudson, up the Erie, Oswego into Lake Ontario.

From there through the Trent and Severen, Georgian Bay, North Channel, then

Lake Michigan to The Trawler Fest in Manitowoc WI. I will be gone from
March
20th to August 21st. Come hell or low water, I am going to go.

Right now I have completely redone my boat from top to bottom but all I have
for navigation is a 20 year old VHF radio a 20 year old autopilot a
compass,
a stop watch and the large print Rand McNally. I am quite certain that I am
capable of navigating the entire route with only this equipment but I would
like to add a little more.

I want to have charts and minimal electronics to make the navigation a bit
easier. My question is what is the minimum and the cheapest route to go at
this point. Start talking in multiple boat units and you have gone to far.
Think minimalist when you answer this question. Thanks to all in advance.

REPLY
Kurt, at a minimum, I would want proper charts that cover every nautical
mile of the cruise, especially once you move inshore. A Rand McNally atlas,
large print edition or not, is not appropriate for navigation purposes. I
can't speak to the charted hazards before you arrive at Lake Ontario through
the Erie Canal at Oswego, but once you start up the Trent-Severn Waterway
and get into Georgian Bay, charts are essential for safety and your own
sanity. There are 45 locks on the system, and there are 7 sets of strip
charts that cover the entire length of 240 miles. You do cross a height of
land, so the channel markers are reversed for part of the system, as the
current changes direction.
Water levels in the Trent-Severn are manually controlled by low-head dams
and locks, and may fluctuate as much as 18" to 2 feet during the boating
season. As an example, last April when Taid's Inn was launched, she was
suspended in slings on a Monday with roughly two inches of the transom
immersed. When I went back to the marina on the Wednesday, she was clear of
the water, with only a couple of feet of keel near the bow still submerged.
The water levels had apparently dropped by about 16", and the marina staff
failed to compensate by increasing the scope of the slings.
Georgian Bay was reported last year to be 0.3 metres above chart datum, or
about a foot above low low water. The Bay officially contains 30,000
islands, but with the low water levels of the past several years, it is
likely closer to 50,000, most of which are normally awash. There are very
safe channels, mostly well marked, though the islands, but an error of 50
feet to either side will ground your vessel, and the results will be
significant. Sharp granite rocks tend to win in collisions with boats, even
steel ones. I wouldn't be caught dead on Georgian Bay (actually, maybe I
would!) without a full set of charts.
Once you clear Georgian Bay, you will be out of sight of land for extended
periods, and will have to run across commercial shipping lanes on Lake Huron
and Lake Michigan. While we are not talking 1,000 foot container vessels,
you are looking at 700 foot ore carriers that are reluctant to alter course
for anyone, and the conditions can change far more rapidly than the
Atlantic. A 6 foot chop on the Atlantic makes for a nice relaxing motion.
A similar chop on Lake Simcoe (part of the Trent-Severn system), or on any
of the Great Lakes, has a far short moment between swells, and experienced
seamen on ocean-going freighters have been known to become extremely seasick
when transiting the Great Lakes. A six-foot chop on Lake Simcoe will drive
most fiberglass cruisers into harbor.
There are cruising guides available for most Ontario waters (The "Ports"
series) that identify full service marinas that will accommodate your
vessel, as well as cruising guides prepared by the Trent-Severn
administration. Most won't, and those that will generally require
reservations due to the significant volumes of transient boaters. The Ports
Guides also identify local attractions, such as restaurants, shopping
centers and grocery stores, etc. You need to allow at least three days to
get from Lake Ontario to Lake Simcoe, and another couple of days to transit
the remaining part of the Trent up to Georgian Bay.
At a minimum, I think you need a GPS unit to go with the charts, a depth
sounder or good quality fishfinder, and some form of chart plotter,
especially if you are planning on single-handing the trip. A hand-held
unit, especially if it can be linked to a laptop running electronic charts,
will probably be adequate for your purposes. I use a Garmin 12 handheld
linked to a Windows 95 laptop running Fugawi software and BSB charts
provided by Nautical Data International, who are the only Canadian
authorized issuers of Canadian Hydrographic Services charts. (Raster only,
no vector charts available so far) Paper charts are required by Canadian
Law, by the way, so don't go electronic only.
If you want to contact me privately, I would be pleased to pass on any more
information you need with respect to that portion of your trip. Also, if
you provide your estimated itinerary, I'll see if we can meet up at some
point to say hello.
Enjoy your trip. It sounds like a lot of fun.
Bob Davies
Taid's Inn
1965 Pacemaker 32' Sedan Express
Toronto

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.561 / Virus Database: 353 - Release Date: 1/13/04

Kurt Reno wrote: My intentions are to tow my boat to southern Florida and launch for a trip up the eastern seaboard, up the Hudson, up the Erie, Oswego into Lake Ontario. >From there through the Trent and Severen, Georgian Bay, North Channel, then Lake Michigan to The Trawler Fest in Manitowoc WI. I will be gone from March 20th to August 21st. Come hell or low water, I am going to go. Right now I have completely redone my boat from top to bottom but all I have for navigation is a 20 year old VHF radio a 20 year old autopilot a compass, a stop watch and the large print Rand McNally. I am quite certain that I am capable of navigating the entire route with only this equipment but I would like to add a little more. I want to have charts and minimal electronics to make the navigation a bit easier. My question is what is the minimum and the cheapest route to go at this point. Start talking in multiple boat units and you have gone to far. Think minimalist when you answer this question. Thanks to all in advance. REPLY Kurt, at a minimum, I would want proper charts that cover every nautical mile of the cruise, especially once you move inshore. A Rand McNally atlas, large print edition or not, is not appropriate for navigation purposes. I can't speak to the charted hazards before you arrive at Lake Ontario through the Erie Canal at Oswego, but once you start up the Trent-Severn Waterway and get into Georgian Bay, charts are essential for safety and your own sanity. There are 45 locks on the system, and there are 7 sets of strip charts that cover the entire length of 240 miles. You do cross a height of land, so the channel markers are reversed for part of the system, as the current changes direction. Water levels in the Trent-Severn are manually controlled by low-head dams and locks, and may fluctuate as much as 18" to 2 feet during the boating season. As an example, last April when Taid's Inn was launched, she was suspended in slings on a Monday with roughly two inches of the transom immersed. When I went back to the marina on the Wednesday, she was clear of the water, with only a couple of feet of keel near the bow still submerged. The water levels had apparently dropped by about 16", and the marina staff failed to compensate by increasing the scope of the slings. Georgian Bay was reported last year to be 0.3 metres above chart datum, or about a foot above low low water. The Bay officially contains 30,000 islands, but with the low water levels of the past several years, it is likely closer to 50,000, most of which are normally awash. There are very safe channels, mostly well marked, though the islands, but an error of 50 feet to either side will ground your vessel, and the results will be significant. Sharp granite rocks tend to win in collisions with boats, even steel ones. I wouldn't be caught dead on Georgian Bay (actually, maybe I would!) without a full set of charts. Once you clear Georgian Bay, you will be out of sight of land for extended periods, and will have to run across commercial shipping lanes on Lake Huron and Lake Michigan. While we are not talking 1,000 foot container vessels, you are looking at 700 foot ore carriers that are reluctant to alter course for anyone, and the conditions can change far more rapidly than the Atlantic. A 6 foot chop on the Atlantic makes for a nice relaxing motion. A similar chop on Lake Simcoe (part of the Trent-Severn system), or on any of the Great Lakes, has a far short moment between swells, and experienced seamen on ocean-going freighters have been known to become extremely seasick when transiting the Great Lakes. A six-foot chop on Lake Simcoe will drive most fiberglass cruisers into harbor. There are cruising guides available for most Ontario waters (The "Ports" series) that identify full service marinas that will accommodate your vessel, as well as cruising guides prepared by the Trent-Severn administration. Most won't, and those that will generally require reservations due to the significant volumes of transient boaters. The Ports Guides also identify local attractions, such as restaurants, shopping centers and grocery stores, etc. You need to allow at least three days to get from Lake Ontario to Lake Simcoe, and another couple of days to transit the remaining part of the Trent up to Georgian Bay. At a minimum, I think you need a GPS unit to go with the charts, a depth sounder or good quality fishfinder, and some form of chart plotter, especially if you are planning on single-handing the trip. A hand-held unit, especially if it can be linked to a laptop running electronic charts, will probably be adequate for your purposes. I use a Garmin 12 handheld linked to a Windows 95 laptop running Fugawi software and BSB charts provided by Nautical Data International, who are the only Canadian authorized issuers of Canadian Hydrographic Services charts. (Raster only, no vector charts available so far) Paper charts are required by Canadian Law, by the way, so don't go electronic only. If you want to contact me privately, I would be pleased to pass on any more information you need with respect to that portion of your trip. Also, if you provide your estimated itinerary, I'll see if we can meet up at some point to say hello. Enjoy your trip. It sounds like a lot of fun. Bob Davies Taid's Inn 1965 Pacemaker 32' Sedan Express Toronto --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.561 / Virus Database: 353 - Release Date: 1/13/04

MR

Mark Richter

Wed, Jan 21, 2004 7:03 PM

Electronics: Just get a low dollar GPS from Garmin. I prefer
the permanantly installed type. My Garmin model 128 cost about
$250 about 4 years ago, holds 1000 waypoints (I've filled about
950 of those), and has a very useful tracback feature that helps
you get out of places you've gotten into. The screens on the
handhelds are just too small for my taste.

Charts: Maptech chartkits (formerly BBA) are the only budget way
to go for FL to Norfolk. Two kits cover the Keys to the S. end
of Chesapeake Bay, at about $120 each. Or do what I do and find
used chartkits at marine stores or flea markets for about $20 to
30 each. The depths and contours don't change over 10 years,
just some of the markers have new numbers. With your shallow
draft and a little common sense, you won't get into much trouble
with older charts.

Mark Richter, m/v Winnie the Pooh
preparing for departure to Bahamas in 1 week

Electronics: Just get a low dollar GPS from Garmin. I prefer the permanantly installed type. My Garmin model 128 cost about $250 about 4 years ago, holds 1000 waypoints (I've filled about 950 of those), and has a very useful tracback feature that helps you get out of places you've gotten into. The screens on the handhelds are just too small for my taste. Charts: Maptech chartkits (formerly BBA) are the only budget way to go for FL to Norfolk. Two kits cover the Keys to the S. end of Chesapeake Bay, at about $120 each. Or do what I do and find used chartkits at marine stores or flea markets for about $20 to 30 each. The depths and contours don't change over 10 years, just some of the markers have new numbers. With your shallow draft and a little common sense, you won't get into much trouble with older charts. Mark Richter, m/v Winnie the Pooh preparing for departure to Bahamas in 1 week

K

Keith

Wed, Jan 21, 2004 11:50 PM

Bellingham chart printers provide black and white copies of charts in full
size or 2/3 size, individual or in portfolios. They can be as much as 72%
less than NOAA originals. Check them out at: http://www.tidesend.com/
Full size are $6.95 each, 2/3 size are $4.95 each. Cheaper in quantity.

Keith
__
Our bombs are smarter than the average high school student. At least they
can find Iraq.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Richter" Richter-Pooh@rocketmail.com

Charts: Or do what I do and find
used chartkits at marine stores or flea markets for about $20 to
30 each.

Bellingham chart printers provide black and white copies of charts in full size or 2/3 size, individual or in portfolios. They can be as much as 72% less than NOAA originals. Check them out at: http://www.tidesend.com/ Full size are $6.95 each, 2/3 size are $4.95 each. Cheaper in quantity. Keith __ Our bombs are smarter than the average high school student. At least they can find Iraq. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Richter" <Richter-Pooh@rocketmail.com> > > Charts: Or do what I do and find > used chartkits at marine stores or flea markets for about $20 to > 30 each.

trawlers@lists.trawlering.com

TWL: Question on minimum electronics/charts for trip.