Empathy List Archives

PS

Peter Sheppard

Sat, Mar 17, 2007 7:45 PM

Bruce said:

I speak from experience. You need to make long ocean passages on various
designs to reach definitive conclusions. Too many people read the hype,
buy into it and become converts without any experience in alternatives,
settling for a conventional production boat they can afford. There is
nothing wrong with unconventional if you have the experience to evaluate
it.

Of course, one can make the point that going to sea in anything is far
worse than not going at all.

Bruce,

One of the reasons why people read the hype, buy into it and become
converts without any experience in alternatives, is because they can't
get any experience with alternatives - co's there ain't none. Reminds me
of the old adage "Bring together a man with money and a man with
experience, and you'll soon find the man with money now has the
experience, and the man with experience now has the money" The good
chance the original man with experience will turn out to be a designer
or builder of boats trying to turn a buck seeking to find some obscure
point of difference.

Now with regard to "fat" monohulls and particularly your mention of
Nordhavn's (note correct spelling) which I presume you regard as the
people that buy into the hype, then how come these people spend so much
time out on the water and snorkel in locations like in your desk photo?
They are much, much, too busy enjoying themselves to try and reinvent
the wheel. Also how come these converts will wait up to two years for a
hype boat to be built? How come most of the brokerage boats available
belong to people who are moving up in size because they want even more
of the hype? One Nordhavn owner has his boat in brokerage, wait for it,
to contract for a smaller one to be built because the 55 was just too
big for him he found on his recent trip from California down to Chile
and back - single-handed. Shame he didn't go further south because he
would have run into two other Nordhavn's currently flitting back and
forwards around Cape Horn. These two boats aren't contemplating a better
design; they are too busy thinking about going to Antarctica.

"Fat boat" - my "fat ass".

Peter

Bruce said: I speak from experience. You need to make long ocean passages on various designs to reach definitive conclusions. Too many people read the hype, buy into it and become converts without any experience in alternatives, settling for a conventional production boat they can afford. There is nothing wrong with unconventional if you have the experience to evaluate it. Of course, one can make the point that going to sea in anything is far worse than not going at all. Bruce, One of the reasons why people read the hype, buy into it and become converts without any experience in alternatives, is because they can't get any experience with alternatives - co's there ain't none. Reminds me of the old adage "Bring together a man with money and a man with experience, and you'll soon find the man with money now has the experience, and the man with experience now has the money" The good chance the original man with experience will turn out to be a designer or builder of boats trying to turn a buck seeking to find some obscure point of difference. Now with regard to "fat" monohulls and particularly your mention of Nordhavn's (note correct spelling) which I presume you regard as the people that buy into the hype, then how come these people spend so much time out on the water and snorkel in locations like in your desk photo? They are much, much, too busy enjoying themselves to try and reinvent the wheel. Also how come these converts will wait up to two years for a hype boat to be built? How come most of the brokerage boats available belong to people who are moving up in size because they want even more of the hype? One Nordhavn owner has his boat in brokerage, wait for it, to contract for a smaller one to be built because the 55 was just too big for him he found on his recent trip from California down to Chile and back - single-handed. Shame he didn't go further south because he would have run into two other Nordhavn's currently flitting back and forwards around Cape Horn. These two boats aren't contemplating a better design; they are too busy thinking about going to Antarctica. "Fat boat" - my "fat ass". Peter

SE

Scott E. Bulger

Sat, Mar 17, 2007 9:54 PM

Both Peter and Bruce make good and valid points:

Bruce says: There is nothing wrong with unconventional if you have the
experience to evaluate it.

Peter says: One of the reasons why people read the hype, buy into it and
become
converts without any experience in alternatives, is because they can't
get any experience with alternatives - co's there ain't none.

What may not be clear is if you don't know who Bruce is and the experience
he discusses, you can't really appreciate how compelling both argument are.
By the same token, Peter makes a point that can't be ignored. Bruce is
President and founder of U.S. Submarines. He spent his life on boats and in
fact is building a Dashew like slim, wave piercing monohull. Additionally
he is building the first underwater resort community.

Meanwhile Peter is one of those guys who does his research, makes a
decision, plunks down hundreds of thousands of dollars and joins the
Nordhavn clan. Peter's point that if you were to go to the cruising
community and ask "where are there 15 people I can talk to that are cruising
their power boats extensively, across oceans, living the dream?". Very,
very few manufactures can provide that list of referencable people (again
for power, no doubt there are countless sailing boats around the world).
Like Nordhavn or not, what they have done is create a cruising community.
Through their Round the World 40 trip, Atlantic Rally, web site and owners
forums there are dozens of referancable people participating in the
passagemaking lifestyle, sharing experiences and information. I believe
Krogen can also make this claim. This is no small issue. If such a multi
hull community exists, I'm just not aware of it (again, power not sail). So
to Peters point, as a buyer, if you go out looking for education, support
and a quality product, your going to land on Nordhavns or Krogen's or
Seahorse's door step one way or another. Now, once there, you will get lots
of exposure to alternatives. Who doesn't love the beautiful lines of the
Krogen 44? Who doesn't love the strength of the DD46+2 steel hull? Who
would savor the opportunity to own a dual 800HP Flemming 55? Maybe someday
soon there will even be a passagemaking capable multi-hull contender on the
list? As you start to evaluate the options you find a Nordhavn or a Krogen
will keep the admiral happy with a nice interior, has the range and
equipment to go the distance and is pretty well known from a return value
and resale perspective. While there are no guarantees, a Nordhavn or a
Krogen is a known commodity when there are so many questions that go
unanswered as you look at other boats from various manufactures. Again,
this doesn't mean you can't find and purchase them, but with a Nordhavn,
Krogen or DD it's just very easy to get answers.

So, the net of this is, yes for Bruce (like Dashew) a guy immersed in every
aspect of life on the sea, evaluating unique options is stimulating and
challenging. I can only assume he has the financial resources to put his
money where his mouth is and turn his research and ideas into reality.
Clearly he has significant financial resources, because mooring an 80' slim
hull is going to cost some bucks!

For others (myself included), I'm perfectly happy to let Nordhavn do the
research, bring a product to market and then make an investment in a
platform that, like all boats, is a compromise. What I know is:

a. the boat is capable of making the voyages in our plan
b. it is reasonably cost effective to operate, moore and maintain
c. there is a great community of owners offering support and assistance
d. the company appears viable and will stand behind the product
e. there is a vibrant resale market for well taken care of and equipped
boats

These were the things I needed to move ahead with this decision. While a
multi-hull passagemaking capable boat may be out there, or will be available
soon, there still other factors that will come into play in making the
decision to invest. Yes, big fat boats may not slice through the waves, but
who can argue that they aren't out there getting it done? A wave piercing
mono hull may deliver a dramatically better ride in big seas, but can I
mitigate 80% of the issue by waiting? Someone will say "your going to get
caught out there someday". Well your right and God willing, and hoping the
fiberglass holds together, I hope we will make it. The fact is livability,
resale, manufactures support, extended owners community all factor into this
as well. If all we had to do was choose the best possible platform, I
believe we would be talking about submarines, after all, what wave ever
rocked a sub in the ocean? Oh, I forgot about those pesky sea mounts, damn,
just when I thought I had it all figured out!

Safe voyages!

Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA

-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com]On Behalf Of
Peter Sheppard
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 12:45 PM
To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PUP] Motor/sailing Vessels

Bruce said:

I speak from experience. You need to make long ocean passages on various
designs to reach definitive conclusions. Too many people read the hype,
buy into it and become converts without any experience in alternatives,
settling for a conventional production boat they can afford. There is
nothing wrong with unconventional if you have the experience to evaluate
it.

Of course, one can make the point that going to sea in anything is far
worse than not going at all.

Bruce,

One of the reasons why people read the hype, buy into it and become
converts without any experience in alternatives, is because they can't
get any experience with alternatives - co's there ain't none. Reminds me
of the old adage "Bring together a man with money and a man with
experience, and you'll soon find the man with money now has the
experience, and the man with experience now has the money" The good
chance the original man with experience will turn out to be a designer
or builder of boats trying to turn a buck seeking to find some obscure
point of difference.

Now with regard to "fat" monohulls and particularly your mention of
Nordhavn's (note correct spelling) which I presume you regard as the
people that buy into the hype, then how come these people spend so much
time out on the water and snorkel in locations like in your desk photo?
They are much, much, too busy enjoying themselves to try and reinvent
the wheel. Also how come these converts will wait up to two years for a
hype boat to be built? How come most of the brokerage boats available
belong to people who are moving up in size because they want even more
of the hype? One Nordhavn owner has his boat in brokerage, wait for it,
to contract for a smaller one to be built because the 55 was just too
big for him he found on his recent trip from California down to Chile
and back - single-handed. Shame he didn't go further south because he
would have run into two other Nordhavn's currently flitting back and
forwards around Cape Horn. These two boats aren't contemplating a better
design; they are too busy thinking about going to Antarctica.

"Fat boat" - my "fat ass".

Peter

Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

To be removed from the PUP list send an email with the
subject "unsubscribe" (no quotes) to the link below:

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Both Peter and Bruce make good and valid points: Bruce says: There is nothing wrong with unconventional if you have the experience to evaluate it. Peter says: One of the reasons why people read the hype, buy into it and become converts without any experience in alternatives, is because they can't get any experience with alternatives - co's there ain't none. What may not be clear is if you don't know who Bruce is and the experience he discusses, you can't really appreciate how compelling both argument are. By the same token, Peter makes a point that can't be ignored. Bruce is President and founder of U.S. Submarines. He spent his life on boats and in fact is building a Dashew like slim, wave piercing monohull. Additionally he is building the first underwater resort community. Meanwhile Peter is one of those guys who does his research, makes a decision, plunks down hundreds of thousands of dollars and joins the Nordhavn clan. Peter's point that if you were to go to the cruising community and ask "where are there 15 people I can talk to that are cruising their power boats extensively, across oceans, living the dream?". Very, very few manufactures can provide that list of referencable people (again for power, no doubt there are countless sailing boats around the world). Like Nordhavn or not, what they have done is create a cruising community. Through their Round the World 40 trip, Atlantic Rally, web site and owners forums there are dozens of referancable people participating in the passagemaking lifestyle, sharing experiences and information. I believe Krogen can also make this claim. This is no small issue. If such a multi hull community exists, I'm just not aware of it (again, power not sail). So to Peters point, as a buyer, if you go out looking for education, support and a quality product, your going to land on Nordhavns or Krogen's or Seahorse's door step one way or another. Now, once there, you will get lots of exposure to alternatives. Who doesn't love the beautiful lines of the Krogen 44? Who doesn't love the strength of the DD46+2 steel hull? Who would savor the opportunity to own a dual 800HP Flemming 55? Maybe someday soon there will even be a passagemaking capable multi-hull contender on the list? As you start to evaluate the options you find a Nordhavn or a Krogen will keep the admiral happy with a nice interior, has the range and equipment to go the distance and is pretty well known from a return value and resale perspective. While there are no guarantees, a Nordhavn or a Krogen is a known commodity when there are so many questions that go unanswered as you look at other boats from various manufactures. Again, this doesn't mean you can't find and purchase them, but with a Nordhavn, Krogen or DD it's just very easy to get answers. So, the net of this is, yes for Bruce (like Dashew) a guy immersed in every aspect of life on the sea, evaluating unique options is stimulating and challenging. I can only assume he has the financial resources to put his money where his mouth is and turn his research and ideas into reality. Clearly he has significant financial resources, because mooring an 80' slim hull is going to cost some bucks! For others (myself included), I'm perfectly happy to let Nordhavn do the research, bring a product to market and then make an investment in a platform that, like all boats, is a compromise. What I know is: a. the boat is capable of making the voyages in our plan b. it is reasonably cost effective to operate, moore and maintain c. there is a great community of owners offering support and assistance d. the company appears viable and will stand behind the product e. there is a vibrant resale market for well taken care of and equipped boats These were the things I needed to move ahead with this decision. While a multi-hull passagemaking capable boat may be out there, or will be available soon, there still other factors that will come into play in making the decision to invest. Yes, big fat boats may not slice through the waves, but who can argue that they aren't out there getting it done? A wave piercing mono hull may deliver a dramatically better ride in big seas, but can I mitigate 80% of the issue by waiting? Someone will say "your going to get caught out there someday". Well your right and God willing, and hoping the fiberglass holds together, I hope we will make it. The fact is livability, resale, manufactures support, extended owners community all factor into this as well. If all we had to do was choose the best possible platform, I believe we would be talking about submarines, after all, what wave ever rocked a sub in the ocean? Oh, I forgot about those pesky sea mounts, damn, just when I thought I had it all figured out! Safe voyages! Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA -----Original Message----- From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com [mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com]On Behalf Of Peter Sheppard Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 12:45 PM To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com Subject: [PUP] Motor/sailing Vessels Bruce said: I speak from experience. You need to make long ocean passages on various designs to reach definitive conclusions. Too many people read the hype, buy into it and become converts without any experience in alternatives, settling for a conventional production boat they can afford. There is nothing wrong with unconventional if you have the experience to evaluate it. Of course, one can make the point that going to sea in anything is far worse than not going at all. Bruce, One of the reasons why people read the hype, buy into it and become converts without any experience in alternatives, is because they can't get any experience with alternatives - co's there ain't none. Reminds me of the old adage "Bring together a man with money and a man with experience, and you'll soon find the man with money now has the experience, and the man with experience now has the money" The good chance the original man with experience will turn out to be a designer or builder of boats trying to turn a buck seeking to find some obscure point of difference. Now with regard to "fat" monohulls and particularly your mention of Nordhavn's (note correct spelling) which I presume you regard as the people that buy into the hype, then how come these people spend so much time out on the water and snorkel in locations like in your desk photo? They are much, much, too busy enjoying themselves to try and reinvent the wheel. Also how come these converts will wait up to two years for a hype boat to be built? How come most of the brokerage boats available belong to people who are moving up in size because they want even more of the hype? One Nordhavn owner has his boat in brokerage, wait for it, to contract for a smaller one to be built because the 55 was just too big for him he found on his recent trip from California down to Chile and back - single-handed. Shame he didn't go further south because he would have run into two other Nordhavn's currently flitting back and forwards around Cape Horn. These two boats aren't contemplating a better design; they are too busy thinking about going to Antarctica. "Fat boat" - my "fat ass". Peter _______________________________________________ Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. To be removed from the PUP list send an email with the subject "unsubscribe" (no quotes) to the link below: mailto:passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com Passagemaking-Under-Power Mailing List

SM

Sonaia Maryon-Davis

Wed, Mar 21, 2007 10:10 AM

Hi Scott,

"As you start to evaluate the options you find a Nordhavn or a Krogen will
keep the admiral happy with a nice interior,..."

I am not quite sure with who you travel with but I could be easily
'offended' with your sexist remark above :-(

I am more than a pretty face you know :-) ... and when my captain is asleep
is me that look after our boat from midnight till three in the morning all
ALONE in the middle of nowhere sometimes and takes more than be 'happy with
a nice interior' to be able to do that.
To be fare with many admirals I know, they are far more than a pretty face
too and have interesting things to say and to contribute on a life on board
of a boat.

Sonaia hermida :-)

Hi Scott, "As you start to evaluate the options you find a Nordhavn or a Krogen will keep the admiral happy with a nice interior,..." I am not quite sure with who you travel with but I could be easily 'offended' with your sexist remark above :-( I am more than a pretty face you know :-) ... and when my captain is asleep is me that look after our boat from midnight till three in the morning all ALONE in the middle of nowhere sometimes and takes more than be 'happy with a nice interior' to be able to do that. To be fare with many admirals I know, they are far more than a pretty face too and have interesting things to say and to contribute on a life on board of a boat. Sonaia hermida :-)

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Motor/sailing Vessels