[DISCLAIMER: This is written by a boat dealer....and it's long, so stand by your delete button; that's quicker than us having to ALSO read your subsequent grousing....grin] Bob is correct about the Nordhavns not being the only answer. More to the point, those chaps extolling the Nordhavn over cats may find themselves with "huevos rancheros" on their faces. Not too long ago one of the two brothers who own the Nordhavn company (I forget: is it PAE, or something like that...) called me to see if we could visit the various power cats together at that year's Miami show. He didn't show all his cards, but it quickly became apparent after we met at that show and were walking around, viewing the various cats there, that he was very favorable toward the design. Further, he himself articulated the leading benefits offered by that design. Does that mean that Nordhavn/PAE is going to introduce a cat? Don't know...but it wouldn't surprise me. He hadn't flown 3,000 miles simply because of idle curiosity. But he also wasn't surprised when I told him that about 15% of the calls I get are from Nordhavn (and yes, other displacement monohull owners) who are generally happy with their craft....but have found that traveling at 8 knots gives new meaning to the word "interminable." He laughed, and said that was one of the reasons he was intrigued by cats. We spoke about the 35-footer his company had recently introduced and how, when all was said and done, it could not readily deliver the max speed of 15 knots that they'd been hoping. In short, he well knew that he was losing an appreciably market share solely because of the limited speed of displacement monohulls. But he also was attraced to the comfort factor. As he pointed out, it's not for nothing that power cats have become pretty much THE design of choice for moving passengers quickly and comfortably and economically in areas where, no matter the weather or sea conditions, those folks HAVE to get from point A to point B. Visit ANY major waterside city today, and you're going to find power cats. -- The 26-mile ocean run from L.A. to Catalina Island. NONE of the proferred monohulls could match the power cat design that was eventually chosen and built. The resulting ride? (and that is sometimes a LUMPY course) Faster AND more comfortable on these new cats than on any monhull. -- Hong Kong harbor? Lousy with cat ferries and cat commuter vessels. -- Seattle to Victoria? The power cats now making that run nearly halved the previous monohull's time, plus being cheaper....AND more comfortable. -- The passenger ferry from Oakland to downtown San Francisco? (Now THAT is a bay than can get rough, with 25 knot winds blowing against 3-knot tidal currents; our 40 to 50-foot sailing cats take white water over their full length at times in those conditions.) Yet that passenger power cat offers airline-type seats and a near-motionless ride every day! -- Greater NY City/adjoining Hudson River? A plethora of cats...super comfortable despite the roil that's encountered when the out-flowing Hudson river meets the incoming Atlantic tide. -- Southhampton....and ALL OVER the English Channel....cats and more cats. I can already hear those among you muttering, "Yeah but....if cats were so 'good' why are they so scarce at MY marina?" This, I think, is a spot-on observation. And "Mr. PAE" and I addressed this point more than any other topic. And it became more apparent "why" as we boarded and inspected each power cat there at the Miami show. There aren't hardly any GOOD ones available yet in the U.S.! I'm reminded of the computer world from about the late 1970s on up to about 1980 or so. More and more ads-and-articles were just beginning to appear regarding "personal computers." A common boast was that "you can balance your checkbook in a jif." Well....yeah....but for the $1,000 cost, that seemed pretty darn spendy for a seemingly highly-limited-use item. In short, the "killer app" (killer software application) had not yet been invented. (Nor had that phrase.) Then, word began to spread about a software program called LOTUS 1-2-3. For the first time, the average Joe could create an honest-to-gosh spread sheet in a FRACTION of the time that that process had previously taken by hand. Suddenly, overnight, the first computer "killer app" had arrived. Thereafter that was speedily improved upon (Bonjour, Excel!) My point being -- thus far, as someone who's been selling catamarans longer than any other dealer in North America, I STILL haven't seen a "killer app" among cruising-size power cats. What would that "killer app" power cat involve? This is both a random and subjective list, but: MODERATE BEAM: The Aussies and Kiwis have already long shown: you don't need to have a beam any more than 33% to 40% of the length. (The average monohull's beam is about 33% -- that is, a 45' monohull will have about a 15' to 16' beam.) I happen to be a Lagoon and Fountaine Pajot catamaran dealer -- the two leading brands in the world -- and even I can't understand why they're offering power cats with such excessive beams. Well, that's only partly true. I strongly assume that because each of those companies made their names offering sailing cats (where, for safety reasons, given the huge amount of pressure against sails flying far above the boat, the beam MUST be at least 50%, or more, of the length) that that design "thinking" has just carried on over to the power cats. Kind of like the first auto makers who, so the apocryphal story goes, often installed a "buggy whip" holder next to the operator's foot. Horse carts had ALWAYS had such holders, and it was just too much of a paradigm shift for the men who'd been building horse carts for so many year to NOT include that same feature on those early autos. In any case, I see no reason for a 40' power cat to have more than 18-or-so feet of beam. (Well, sure, the larger beam means more room, but it incorporates other drawbacks -- besides moorage restrictions -- such as greater weight, drag, etc., etc.) INTERIOR FITTING THE PURPOSE: Again, the French cats love to insert huge dining tables with seating for 6 to 8 to 10. But the reality of most privately owned U.W. cruising boats is that they're bought by a couple, usually without kids still living at home, who thus would usually like dining room for 4...maybe 6. BUT NOT extra dining at the expense of after-dining seating. The majority of today's cruising cats offer NO salon seating except for the dining table. But a GOOD design offers seating with a fairly vertical back rest and a table that extends over their diners' laps. Hence the frequent comment in a shoreside home after the meal has been eaten: "Shall we retire to more comfortable seating?" And 'more comfortable' means an angled seat back, plus a slight angle to the portion under ones thighs. And a bull-nose design along the leading edge of the seating, again to keep one from feeling as though one is sliding off the seat onto the floor. I mean, the ergonomics of proper seating were ALL worked out a century ago. Yet today's power cats, with few exceptions, ignore it, and offer LOUSY non-dining seating. OR more to the point, they offer ONLY dining seating. Where are the comfortable couches? Where are the especially comfortable recliners or lounge chairs. C'mon cat designers -- people are going to be spending days, if not weeks or months, onboard...and there is NO reason for them to do without seating every bit as comfortable as what they have in their shoreside homes. MOVE-ABOUT ERGONOMICS: Yeah, yeah, I know -- the PDQ is the darling of small-cat owners. And rightly so....but NOT because it's a great design. Rather, because it's the only even moderately ACCEPTABLE design. Would anyone CHOOSE to have to climb or descend steps every time you want to visit a different area of a boat? From exiting the dinghy to entering the salon? NO (But the PDQ has no cockpit, so one must.) To get from the salon to the galley? NO (The Fountaine Pajot 35 has a much superior layout in terms of cockpit/salon/galley all being on one flat-soled surface. unfortunately, it fails badly at other features in which the PDQ excels. For me, it's a wash between the two...and NEITHER is as good as a 34' to 35' power cat SHOULD be. Again...NO "KILLER APP" yet exists. (For example, WHAT BOATER, given the choice, would say, "Oh yes, PLEASE install the engines under the two best berths, instead of in the cockpit with large, easily accessed hatches offering access to said engines? (No one that I know of.) And the "steps" thing. Lagoon, too, "missed the boat" in this regard. It's no-longer produced 43 and 44' models offered: steps from the swim platform to get to the midship cockpit. Steps to get from the salon to any of the cabins. Steps to get from one cabin TO ANY OTHER CABIN! (This is NOT ergonomics at its most thoughtful). The galley was barely big enough for comfortable weekending. And the ONLY seating in the salon was at the dining table...except for the helm seat...seemingly more of an afterthought than a REAL helm seat. (I'm not saying there aren't some deliriously happy owners of PDQs, and Fountaine Pajots, and Lagoons....just as there were deliriously happy owners of computers before there were any "killer apps" available, too. Some folks are easily pleased. God bless 'em!) Also in the ergonomics category. The absence of island beds has been a MAJOR drawback among cats. That is just now beginning to get some serious attention. I think the new PDQ 41 is offering that. AS is the upcoming Destiny 42. And the upcoming cats from the French builders are purportedly offering that too. BUT, where are the full-size fridges? These under-the-counter, college-dorm-room models still being foisted on buyers of half-million dollar cats are a joke. And yet the builders just don't seem to get it. If people WANTED tiny, under the counter fridges, they'd have them at home, too. Steps and doorways. One thing I can say about PDQ is that they have TALL guys at the head of the company, so they build ergonomically appealing doorways. Conversely, the French seem to LOVE doorways so low that they crease your forehead in the night....AND doorways that FORCE most any American male to pass thru sideways. They're sometimes not even the minimum 22" width of a pilot berth. And as for stairs: too often the stairs leading from the salon down into either hull are more like modified ladders than nice, shallow steps. (Kudos to FP; they build some of the most comfortable salon-to-hull steps in the industry. This feature, by the way, is one argument for a bit more beam to a cat; it allows for really comfortable steps from the salon to the hulls. Beds: builders, this is REALLY easy....just taper the damn thing! A bed doesn't have to be a "complete island" (fully walk around). First off, if it, you'll find your pillows continually falling off the head-end of the bed. Rather, you want a "peninsula" type bed, accessible from three sides. But even that isn't necessary. NO ONE walks to the head of their bed to get into it. They walk about halfway up along the side of the bed, plop down their tush, and lean back while swinging up their legs. So a bed can be full width at the head, and then begin to taper, say, about 1/3 from the head of the bed. And the foot of the bed does NOT need to be 5 feet wide. 3 feet is GREAT...more than that, luxurious. The point being, for YEARS cat builders/designers have insisted on the foot of the beds extending the full width of the hull. That's just BAD design thinking. You smack your shins climbing in (on the wood edge that holds the mattress in place), and getting out of bed requires the motion of a dog trying to rid itself of worms. (You create the picture!) Non-peninsula beds are UNACCEPTABLE!! Heads: Well, first off, kudos to the French for finally understanding that some cultures LIKE a daily shower. But there are too many monohull powerboats with heads/showers that are SUPERIOR to what power cat builders are offering for there to be any excuse. And you know what's going to happen? Whatever designer/builder finally comes out with a really GOOD power cat....well, within 6 to 18 months you're going to see "catch-up" and "copycat" the new mantras for the current power cat builders. All of the current players who are allowing INERTIA to keep them from creating a really good product will have no one to blame but themselves when that "killer app" design finally appears, and the other current players get their lunches handed to them. AESTHETICS: Puh-LEEZE!! if there's one major, inexcusable trait among almost ALL of the production powercats built today, it's that they're offering godawful, clunky looking craft. During my last visit to New Zealand, at one marina....ONE MARINA... I saw more, really good-looking power cats than I've EVER seen at the BEST boat show in North America. And don't even try to tell me that beauty's in the eye of the beholder. Here's a real simple test: is there anyone who thinks that ANY Porsche in the last 10 years was less stylish than, say, O.J.' infamous Ford Bronco? Because anyone who says "yes" to that is so far off the design-evaluation spectrum that, were you an Olympic judge, your score would be thrown out like those of most of the old East Germans. I'm not saying that everyone likes the same thing, stylistically, but if you think the small "car" you can make with Legos is as aesthetically pleasing as its "match-car" equivalent...then no one else is surprised that you think today's power cats are "not bad," or "charmingly appealing." Name the great looking monohulls: Feretti, Fairline, Azimutt, etc. There is NO REASON that power cats can't look every bit as stylish. And if you WERE one of the troglodytes that chose OJ's Bronco over the Porsches, can you not at least see that what Lexus or Porsche have done with the same "boxy" look of the Bronco is a major improvement? That's all I ask of today's power cat designs. Just do SOMETHING better than 75% of the power cats currently on the market. I mean, even a basic, rectangular toaster can be spiffed up markedly. (And that's just a $75 item. A quarter-million or half-million dollar boat, catamaran or not, should have SOME degree of style and elegance. Sheesh....EVEN Nordhavn understands that (grin) Well, I've rambled too long. (See opening line regarding delete button usage.) But let me close with my basic tenet: People are right to complain about the majority of the power cats CURRENTLY available -- even I'M TOO EMBARRASSED to try to sell some of them! The power-cat "killer app" design has yet to appear. But I've been selling cats for 29 years. And I can tell you, there was less choice among sailing cats back then than already exists between power cats. And the power cats are coming on quicker and stronger than sailing cats did in the beginning. I've seen some very interesting designs, and they seem to meet just about all of the aforementioned complaints of mine. During the next 12 to 36 months many (most?) of these new designs will become reality. One (or more) of them may well be the "Lotus 1-2-3" that I -- and many cat fans -- have been waiting for. The twin-hull "killer app." Cheers, Rod Gibbons Cruising Cats USA -----Original Message----- >From: bob Austin <thataway4@cox.net> >Sent: Mar 18, 2007 12:59 AM >To: Passage under power <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> >Subject: [PUP] suitable boats > >The reality is that one does not have to buy a Nordhavn to do the trip that >Scott is doing. Yes, there is a really fantastic business model and >advertising scheme going here! (Got to have the next size boat, or too big a >boat--nonsense--this is all hype) However, on our last trip down the Coast >from Alaska we cruised alongside a stock Defever 40 LRC which eventually went >down around the East Coast of South America and back to the West Coast of >USA. We also cruised along side a stock Defever 44, which the folks had >surveyed, sea trialed, and put their gear aboard and just took the boat down >thru the Canal and to the East Coast. I have seen a Grand Banks 36 cruising >Mexico. A friend who has a 60 year old 45 foot Plywood boat built by his >father (and recently converted from I/O gas engines to Yanmar Diesels) will be >doing this trip in the next year. > >We also saw a 50 foot home made steel boat, with a 20 hp Chinese diesel (OK >what was a poor choice)--which made the trip etc. > >If you have to cross an ocean, then the range is necessary--and the Diesel >Ducks, or the Idlewilds of the world have this. The Choy Lee LRC, the >Hatteras LRC and a host of other boats have all made this trip. There was a >55 foot 10 foot beam home built with a Perkins 4 107 which made the trip >across the Atlantic a few years ago with no problems. One of the list members >took a stock Marine Trader across the Atlantic... > >It is disingenuous to say that you must have a Nordhavn to cruise. That is >just not the truth. There are also host of very good motor sailors available >at a very reasonable price which will do the trip--or around the world, in >comfort--and in some cases more comfort and certainly more economically than >the Nordhavn. > >I have addressed Scott personally about his comments about Cats and >Motorsailers. Suffice to say, that I have sailed/powered several hundred >thousand miles and now own a power cat--so I am learning about that breed. > >So come on guys, lets encourage all folks who are interested in passagemaking, >and not make this the "Nordhavn club". > >Bob Austin. >_______________________________________________ > >Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > >To be removed from the PUP list send an email with the >subject "unsubscribe" (no quotes) to the link below: > >mailto:passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com > >Passagemaking-Under-Power Mailing List

Isn't it interesting that the commercial market is ripe with cats? Amazing, astounding, unimaginable! Oh, wait a moment, could it be that two significant factors come to play that influence this dramatically? Could it be that the passenger carrying capacity of a cat in combination with the fact the mooring arrangements are part of the business combine to make this a wonderful application of the technology? Does that then mean these are the perfect platforms for the cruising couple? No, sorry Rod, apples and oranges. One order of "huevos rancheros" please :) Note the smiley face, I'm trying to be funny! Also, to the best of my knowledge the Nordhavn 35 is far from a "recent" design. I don't know when you met Jeff Leishman (the design half of the brothers), I assume that's who your referring to, but it must have been some number of years ago if they were talking about the 35 as recent. And by the way, one of the major reasons the product didn't meet the design goal was the fiberglass lay-up was so heavy the boat wouldn't plane. They had so much business in the traditional trawler space they went back to filling the demand for that product area and have since brought at least 5 new models to the market. As interested in cats as he may have been, sounds like there was more business to chase in the traditional markets? Your observations about the current state of design in cats are very good, and affirms much of what makes me say "cats suck". A cat, built as you describe, is something I'd take a good hard look at. At that point, it's livable, the seakeeping attributes would start to provide compelling attention. Oh, you missed a key factor related to early PC's and Lotus123. The PC and Lotus123 didn't do anything that Visicalc on an Apple II couldn't have done. It was the combination of the PC, Lotus123 and the Hercules Graphics Card invented by Van Suwannukul that propelled PC's onto the desktops of every accounting manager in corporate America. That was the Genie coming out of the bottle. Perhaps there is a golden age of cats on the horizon? Maybe they are the be all end all answer to every problem faced by the seagoing couple? But answer this for me: It seems the primary advantage of the cat is two slim hulls are joined together to deliver a stable wave piercing platform, improving pitch and being more easily driven through the water. If stability and performance could be delivered in a slim wave piercing monohull design, wouldn't several key advantages be realized? Wouldn't production costs be decreased because of dramatically less labor and materials to build one hull versus two? Isn't it possible that Dashew and Bruce Jones are on a much more cost effective path for the cruising couple? Again, if you want to put 10 or 20 people on a boat, I agree a cat will win hands down, but 80% of the cruising population I've seen are a couple or two on extended voyages. Just a though. By the way, I love huevos rancheros, and occasionally some gets on my face, my lap, my shirt, where ever. This forum is a place to put our thoughts out and have people either agree, disagree or ignore them. I don't know why I sit here and do this? Perhaps because I hope it keeps me thinking and active so I don't enter my retirement years with nothing occupying my mind? Regardless, I do admire the fact you are out there championing a cause you believe in passionately. I'm certain your customers love their cats! I loved my Camano, I think it's THE perfect first boat (it's still for sale and I lowered the price!). I hope everyone reading my posts realizes sometimes I say stuff just to stir the pot. If I offended anyone by saying cats suck, well grow a pair. People call my Nordhavn fat and it doesn't bother me, I wrote the check, you can call it anything you like, I LOVE it! Take care, get out there and DO it! Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA