Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
Town currently provides its employees with vacation days and sick days. Sick days can be carried over without limitation. Unlike vacation days, employees are not reimbursed for unused sick days. Employees have requested that vacation and sick leave be combined into PTO which will have limits on carry over. It is my understanding employees do not want to explain their time off. Several employees have accumulated significant sick leave and they are concerned in the event of a severe illness that may cause them to be off work for a significant period of time. Can Town enact a policy re PTO that eliminates all or a significant portion of sick leave days accrued by employees? Again, employees do not get paid for unused sick days.
Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe Weaver
Joe Weaver
Attorney At Law
405.262.4040
405.262.4058 fax
joe@basslaw.netmailto:agbass@basslaw.net
[cid:image001.png@01D5C4B1.6B4A8900]
www.basslaw.net
104 N. Rock Island Ave.
P.O. Box 157
El Reno, OK 73036
NOTICE:
The information contained in this transmission is or may be protected by the attorney-client and/or the attorney work product privilege and is confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity identified above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination or distribution of the accompanying communication is prohibited. No applicable privilege is waived by the party sending this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply and delete the original message from your system.
Circular 230 Disclosure: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
Are any of the employees subject to a collective bargaining agreement?
Rickey J. Knighton II | Assistant City Attorney | City of Norman
201 West Gray | P.O. Box 370 | Norman, Oklahoma 73070
' 405.217.7700 | 6 405.366.5425 | * rick.knighton@normanok.govmailto:rick.knighton@normanok.gov | þ www.normanok.govhttp://www.normanok.gov/
This e-mail is the property of the City Attorney's office, City of Norman, Oklahoma, and the information contained in this e-mail is protected by the attorney-client and/or the attorney work product privilege. It is intended only for the use of the individual named above and the privileges are not waived by virtue of this having been sent by e-mail. If the person actually receiving this message or any other reader of the message is not the named recipient or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the named recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us and return the original message.
From: Oama oama-bounces@lists.imla.org On Behalf Of Joe Weaver
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:03 PM
To: oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: EXTERNAL EMAIL : [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
Town currently provides its employees with vacation days and sick days. Sick days can be carried over without limitation. Unlike vacation days, employees are not reimbursed for unused sick days. Employees have requested that vacation and sick leave be combined into PTO which will have limits on carry over. It is my understanding employees do not want to explain their time off. Several employees have accumulated significant sick leave and they are concerned in the event of a severe illness that may cause them to be off work for a significant period of time. Can Town enact a policy re PTO that eliminates all or a significant portion of sick leave days accrued by employees? Again, employees do not get paid for unused sick days.
Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe Weaver
Joe Weaver
Attorney At Law
405.262.4040
405.262.4058 fax
joe@basslaw.netmailto:agbass@basslaw.net
[cid:image001.png@01D5C4B5.1D94E6C0]
www.basslaw.net
104 N. Rock Island Ave.
P.O. Box 157
El Reno, OK 73036
NOTICE:
The information contained in this transmission is or may be protected by the attorney-client and/or the attorney work product privilege and is confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity identified above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination or distribution of the accompanying communication is prohibited. No applicable privilege is waived by the party sending this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply and delete the original message from your system.
Circular 230 Disclosure: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
I am attaching a screen shot of a Facebook post by a friend. I am generally
an advocate for general PTO instead of separate vacation & sick leave but
this post causes me pause, quite honestly. This mindset would not be
immediately evident but I can see it happening before too long - employees
believe they don't have any sick leave at all. So you end up with people who
should not be at work spreading their gunk AND being ineffective (and
probably distracting).
I know this isn't necessarily responsive to your question, Joe, but it
immediately came to mind.
Kimberlee T. Spady
Attorney & Counselor at Law
406 N. Broadway, Suite D
Post Office Box 433
Hinton, Oklahoma 73047
Telephone: 405-542-6056
Email: Kim@SpadyLaw.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:
The information in this electronic mail, including attachments, is sent by,
or on behalf of, an attorney and is intended to be the private confidential
property of the sender. The materials are intended solely for the receipt,
use, benefit and information of the recipient indicated above. This
communication may be protected by the attorney-client privilege, the
work-product privilege, or other legal rules. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, use, review,
disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any other action in
reliance on the contents of this transmission or attachments is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify
us immediately by electronic mail or telephone (405-542-6056) and arrange
for the destruction or return of this transmission to us. Thank you for
your cooperation.
From: Oama oama-bounces@lists.imla.org On Behalf Of Joe Weaver
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:03 PM
To: oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off
(PTO)
Town currently provides its employees with vacation days and sick days.
Sick days can be carried over without limitation. Unlike vacation days,
employees are not reimbursed for unused sick days. Employees have requested
that vacation and sick leave be combined into PTO which will have limits on
carry over. It is my understanding employees do not want to explain their
time off. Several employees have accumulated significant sick leave and
they are concerned in the event of a severe illness that may cause them to
be off work for a significant period of time. Can Town enact a policy re
PTO that eliminates all or a significant portion of sick leave days accrued
by employees? Again, employees do not get paid for unused sick days.
Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe Weaver
Joe Weaver
Attorney At Law
405.262.4040
405.262.4058 fax
mailto:agbass@basslaw.net joe@basslaw.net
104 N. Rock Island Ave.
P.O. Box 157
El Reno, OK 73036
NOTICE:
The information contained in this transmission is or may be protected by the
attorney-client and/or the attorney work product privilege and is
confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity
identified above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination or distribution of
the accompanying communication is prohibited. No applicable privilege is
waived by the party sending this communication. If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply and delete the
original message from your system.
Circular 230 Disclosure: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this
communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be
used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under
the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to
another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
I concur with Kimberlee, beware what you ask for.
Wiley "Butch" Williams
Deputy Municipal Counselor
200 N. Walker, 4th Floor
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73102
Direct: 405-297-2685
Mobile: 405-824-5198
From: Oama oama-bounces@lists.imla.org On Behalf Of Kimberlee Spady
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 5:24 PM
To: 'Joe Weaver' jweaver@basslaw.net; oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: Re: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
I am attaching a screen shot of a Facebook post by a friend. I am generally an advocate for general PTO instead of separate vacation & sick leave but this post causes me pause, quite honestly. This mindset would not be immediately evident but I can see it happening before too long - employees believe they don't have any sick leave at all. So you end up with people who should not be at work spreading their gunk AND being ineffective (and probably distracting).
I know this isn't necessarily responsive to your question, Joe, but it immediately came to mind.
Kimberlee T. Spady
Attorney & Counselor at Law
406 N. Broadway, Suite D
Post Office Box 433
Hinton, Oklahoma 73047
Telephone: 405-542-6056
Email: Kim@SpadyLaw.commailto:Kim@SpadyLaw.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:
The information in this electronic mail, including attachments, is sent by, or on behalf of, an attorney and is intended to be the private confidential property of the sender. The materials are intended solely for the receipt, use, benefit and information of the recipient indicated above. This communication may be protected by the attorney-client privilege, the work-product privilege, or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, use, review, disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any other action in reliance on the contents of this transmission or attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail or telephone (405-542-6056) and arrange for the destruction or return of this transmission to us. Thank you for your cooperation.
From: Oama <oama-bounces@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama-bounces@lists.imla.org> On Behalf Of Joe Weaver
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:03 PM
To: oama@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
Town currently provides its employees with vacation days and sick days. Sick days can be carried over without limitation. Unlike vacation days, employees are not reimbursed for unused sick days. Employees have requested that vacation and sick leave be combined into PTO which will have limits on carry over. It is my understanding employees do not want to explain their time off. Several employees have accumulated significant sick leave and they are concerned in the event of a severe illness that may cause them to be off work for a significant period of time. Can Town enact a policy re PTO that eliminates all or a significant portion of sick leave days accrued by employees? Again, employees do not get paid for unused sick days.
Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe Weaver
Joe Weaver
Attorney At Law
405.262.4040
405.262.4058 fax
joe@basslaw.netmailto:agbass@basslaw.net
[cid:image001.png@01D5C535.F89C2960]
www.basslaw.nethttps://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.basslaw.net&data=02%7C01%7CWiley.Williams%40okc.gov%7C19d855858aaf413b1f6508d79313b51e%7C837e0d97dd9d4d0097e688f05a32ee59%7C0%7C1%7C637139585182929155&sdata=5HX%2BPc3cRDbn6aGgdYm%2FxqPgxk2Qd20Q71UqYOZLqFo%3D&reserved=0
104 N. Rock Island Ave.
P.O. Box 157
El Reno, OK 73036
NOTICE:
The information contained in this transmission is or may be protected by the attorney-client and/or the attorney work product privilege and is confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity identified above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination or distribution of the accompanying communication is prohibited. No applicable privilege is waived by the party sending this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply and delete the original message from your system.
Circular 230 Disclosure: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the person to which it is addressed and may contain privileged and confidential information protected by law. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or e-mail, destroy this message and delete any copies held in your electronic files. Unauthorized use and/or re-disclosure may subject you to penalties under applicable state and federal laws.
It seems to me that you can change the employment contract benefits as described, but as Kimberlee and Wiley have pointed out, there will be problems so "be careful what you wish for". I would suggest that the conversion process be reduced to writing - not the entire employment contract, just the conversion. There is a huge potential for confusion. Also, you do not want to destroy the employment at will.
It seems to me that your issue will not be the general conversion as it effects most employees, although converting what may be unpaid and unused sick leave when people quit/are fired/retire into a paid leave will create funding problems. Some may choose to cash out immediately.
What strikes me is the issue of how you ever got to the point of unlimited accumulation of sick leave in the first place.
The big cost will be the one or two people who have a major illness or worker's comp claim and will be gone for months. Full sick leave benefits may be more lucrative than partial disability benefits, and there are many conditions that will have an employee gone for months or even years when you may still have to bring them back to a job. Carrying a vacancy that long will be painful in the extreme (I have yet to seen that many cities with a large stock of unnecessary employees, and you said that this was a town, so even fewer employees typically). Moreover, when they see that the former system was more beneficial in their circumstances, you can be sure that they will "remember" that they never wanted the conversion in the first place; and without a union, the vote of the majority is meaningless.
I remember a chief of police who was gone but on payroll for 8 months (as I recall). In a small or even a medium department, that can be painful and you may not have appropriate replacements.
Mike Vanderburg
Ponca City
From: Oama [mailto:oama-bounces@lists.imla.org] On Behalf Of Kimberlee Spady
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:24 PM
To: 'Joe Weaver'; oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: Re: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click any links or open any attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
I am attaching a screen shot of a Facebook post by a friend. I am generally an advocate for general PTO instead of separate vacation & sick leave but this post causes me pause, quite honestly. This mindset would not be immediately evident but I can see it happening before too long - employees believe they don't have any sick leave at all. So you end up with people who should not be at work spreading their gunk AND being ineffective (and probably distracting).
I know this isn't necessarily responsive to your question, Joe, but it immediately came to mind.
Kimberlee T. Spady
Attorney & Counselor at Law
406 N. Broadway, Suite D
Post Office Box 433
Hinton, Oklahoma 73047
Telephone: 405-542-6056
Email: Kim@SpadyLaw.commailto:Kim@SpadyLaw.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:
The information in this electronic mail, including attachments, is sent by, or on behalf of, an attorney and is intended to be the private confidential property of the sender. The materials are intended solely for the receipt, use, benefit and information of the recipient indicated above. This communication may be protected by the attorney-client privilege, the work-product privilege, or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, use, review, disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any other action in reliance on the contents of this transmission or attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail or telephone (405-542-6056) and arrange for the destruction or return of this transmission to us. Thank you for your cooperation.
From: Oama oama-bounces@lists.imla.org On Behalf Of Joe Weaver
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:03 PM
To: oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
Town currently provides its employees with vacation days and sick days. Sick days can be carried over without limitation. Unlike vacation days, employees are not reimbursed for unused sick days. Employees have requested that vacation and sick leave be combined into PTO which will have limits on carry over. It is my understanding employees do not want to explain their time off. Several employees have accumulated significant sick leave and they are concerned in the event of a severe illness that may cause them to be off work for a significant period of time. Can Town enact a policy re PTO that eliminates all or a significant portion of sick leave days accrued by employees? Again, employees do not get paid for unused sick days.
Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe Weaver
Joe Weaver
Attorney At Law
405.262.4040
405.262.4058 fax
joe@basslaw.netmailto:agbass@basslaw.net
[cid:image001.png@01D5C546.75AB7090]
www.basslaw.net
104 N. Rock Island Ave.
P.O. Box 157
El Reno, OK 73036
NOTICE:
The information contained in this transmission is or may be protected by the attorney-client and/or the attorney work product privilege and is confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity identified above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination or distribution of the accompanying communication is prohibited. No applicable privilege is waived by the party sending this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply and delete the original message from your system.
Circular 230 Disclosure: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
There is no problem for the employer to prospectively change benefit programs for non-represented employees. However, the benefits already earned are vested benefits and have some value. If you cannot reach agreement on the value of those vested benefits, I would recommend the employment relationship be terminated and leave benefits be paid out according to policies now in place. Then start a new term of employment with the new PTO benefit program in place. The Oklahoma City Zoo switched to PTO time in the late 1990s-early 2000s without severing employment; and employees successfully sued the Zoo because the payout for SL was less than the value of their SL would have been at the time of their retirement in the future.
Richard Mahoney
Oklahoma City
From: Oama oama-bounces@lists.imla.org On Behalf Of Michael R. Vanderburg
Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 10:59 AM
To: 'Kimberlee Spady' Kim@spadylaw.com; 'Joe Weaver' jweaver@basslaw.net; oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: Re: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
It seems to me that you can change the employment contract benefits as described, but as Kimberlee and Wiley have pointed out, there will be problems so "be careful what you wish for". I would suggest that the conversion process be reduced to writing - not the entire employment contract, just the conversion. There is a huge potential for confusion. Also, you do not want to destroy the employment at will.
It seems to me that your issue will not be the general conversion as it effects most employees, although converting what may be unpaid and unused sick leave when people quit/are fired/retire into a paid leave will create funding problems. Some may choose to cash out immediately.
What strikes me is the issue of how you ever got to the point of unlimited accumulation of sick leave in the first place.
The big cost will be the one or two people who have a major illness or worker's comp claim and will be gone for months. Full sick leave benefits may be more lucrative than partial disability benefits, and there are many conditions that will have an employee gone for months or even years when you may still have to bring them back to a job. Carrying a vacancy that long will be painful in the extreme (I have yet to seen that many cities with a large stock of unnecessary employees, and you said that this was a town, so even fewer employees typically). Moreover, when they see that the former system was more beneficial in their circumstances, you can be sure that they will "remember" that they never wanted the conversion in the first place; and without a union, the vote of the majority is meaningless.
I remember a chief of police who was gone but on payroll for 8 months (as I recall). In a small or even a medium department, that can be painful and you may not have appropriate replacements.
Mike Vanderburg
Ponca City
From: Oama [mailto:oama-bounces@lists.imla.org] On Behalf Of Kimberlee Spady
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:24 PM
To: 'Joe Weaver'; oama@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: Re: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click any links or open any attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
I am attaching a screen shot of a Facebook post by a friend. I am generally an advocate for general PTO instead of separate vacation & sick leave but this post causes me pause, quite honestly. This mindset would not be immediately evident but I can see it happening before too long - employees believe they don't have any sick leave at all. So you end up with people who should not be at work spreading their gunk AND being ineffective (and probably distracting).
I know this isn't necessarily responsive to your question, Joe, but it immediately came to mind.
Kimberlee T. Spady
Attorney & Counselor at Law
406 N. Broadway, Suite D
Post Office Box 433
Hinton, Oklahoma 73047
Telephone: 405-542-6056
Email: Kim@SpadyLaw.commailto:Kim@SpadyLaw.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:
The information in this electronic mail, including attachments, is sent by, or on behalf of, an attorney and is intended to be the private confidential property of the sender. The materials are intended solely for the receipt, use, benefit and information of the recipient indicated above. This communication may be protected by the attorney-client privilege, the work-product privilege, or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, use, review, disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any other action in reliance on the contents of this transmission or attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify us immediately by electronic mail or telephone (405-542-6056) and arrange for the destruction or return of this transmission to us. Thank you for your cooperation.
From: Oama <oama-bounces@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama-bounces@lists.imla.org> On Behalf Of Joe Weaver
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:03 PM
To: oama@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
Town currently provides its employees with vacation days and sick days. Sick days can be carried over without limitation. Unlike vacation days, employees are not reimbursed for unused sick days. Employees have requested that vacation and sick leave be combined into PTO which will have limits on carry over. It is my understanding employees do not want to explain their time off. Several employees have accumulated significant sick leave and they are concerned in the event of a severe illness that may cause them to be off work for a significant period of time. Can Town enact a policy re PTO that eliminates all or a significant portion of sick leave days accrued by employees? Again, employees do not get paid for unused sick days.
Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe Weaver
Joe Weaver
Attorney At Law
405.262.4040
405.262.4058 fax
joe@basslaw.netmailto:agbass@basslaw.net
[cid:image001.png@01D5C54E.08E1BBB0]
www.basslaw.nethttps://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.basslaw.net&data=02%7C01%7CRichard.Mahoney%40okc.gov%7C6fee21ac9dc14a11f5af08d79393cd1c%7C837e0d97dd9d4d0097e688f05a32ee59%7C0%7C1%7C637140135323319412&sdata=wclVvxZDLuOn9grN5kp9w5t60CaRYrfwzuKOFk9jH08%3D&reserved=0
104 N. Rock Island Ave.
P.O. Box 157
El Reno, OK 73036
NOTICE:
The information contained in this transmission is or may be protected by the attorney-client and/or the attorney work product privilege and is confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity identified above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination or distribution of the accompanying communication is prohibited. No applicable privilege is waived by the party sending this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply and delete the original message from your system.
Circular 230 Disclosure: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the person to which it is addressed and may contain privileged and confidential information protected by law. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone or e-mail, destroy this message and delete any copies held in your electronic files. Unauthorized use and/or re-disclosure may subject you to penalties under applicable state and federal laws.
In Simpson v. City of Blanchard, 1990 OK CIV APP 33, 797 P.2d 346, the court stated the following regarding unused sick leave:
The sick leave policy in question clearly provides for earning and accruing sick days as a benefit of employment. However, there is nothing on the face of the policy to indicate that this benefit has some value independent of the employment-related need of an employee to miss work due to illness or injury. While we agree that the sick leave benefit in question is an "advantage" founded on an employment policy within 40 O.S.Supp.1989 § 165.1(3)https://1.next.westlaw.com/Link/Document/FullText?findType=L&pubNum=1000165&cite=OKSTT40S165.1&originatingDoc=Ib01886a5f79711d983e7e9deff98dc6f&refType=LQ&originationContext=document&transitionType=DocumentItem&contextData=(sc.Search), in order for such sick days to constitute "wages" under 40 O.S.Supp.1989 § 165.3, they must have been used or "cashed in" for bona fide illness or injury in lieu of working days during the pay period preceding termination. Nothing in these statutes supports the "cash-out" theory of Simpson upon termination.
Not sure about the case with the Zoo case mentioned by Richard but whether unused sick leave is wages appears to be based on the particular policy. Norman's Personnel Manual includes the this is not a contract disclaimer, and thus Norman could probably get away with converting sick leave to PTO but fairness militates in favor of possibly grandfathering employees with more sick leave that the new PTO limit would allow.
Rickey J. Knighton II | Assistant City Attorney | City of Norman
201 West Gray | P.O. Box 370 | Norman, Oklahoma 73070
' 405.217.7700 | 6 405.366.5425 | * rick.knighton@normanok.govmailto:rick.knighton@normanok.gov | þ www.normanok.govhttp://www.normanok.gov/
This e-mail is the property of the City Attorney's office, City of Norman, Oklahoma, and the information contained in this e-mail is protected by the attorney-client and/or the attorney work product privilege. It is intended only for the use of the individual named above and the privileges are not waived by virtue of this having been sent by e-mail. If the person actually receiving this message or any other reader of the message is not the named recipient or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the named recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of the communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us and return the original message.
From: Oama oama-bounces@lists.imla.org On Behalf Of Mahoney, Richard E
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 11:49 AM
To: Michael R. Vanderburg vandemr@poncacityok.gov; 'Kimberlee Spady' Kim@spadylaw.com; 'Joe Weaver' jweaver@basslaw.net; oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: EXTERNAL EMAIL : Re: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
There is no problem for the employer to prospectively change benefit programs for non-represented employees. However, the benefits already earned are vested benefits and have some value. If you cannot reach agreement on the value of those vested benefits, I would recommend the employment relationship be terminated and leave benefits be paid out according to policies now in place. Then start a new term of employment with the new PTO benefit program in place. The Oklahoma City Zoo switched to PTO time in the late 1990s-early 2000s without severing employment; and employees successfully sued the Zoo because the payout for SL was less than the value of their SL would have been at the time of their retirement in the future.
Richard Mahoney
Oklahoma City
From: Oama <oama-bounces@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama-bounces@lists.imla.org> On Behalf Of Michael R. Vanderburg
Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 10:59 AM
To: 'Kimberlee Spady' <Kim@spadylaw.commailto:Kim@spadylaw.com>; 'Joe Weaver' <jweaver@basslaw.netmailto:jweaver@basslaw.net>; oama@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: Re: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
It seems to me that you can change the employment contract benefits as described, but as Kimberlee and Wiley have pointed out, there will be problems so "be careful what you wish for". I would suggest that the conversion process be reduced to writing - not the entire employment contract, just the conversion. There is a huge potential for confusion. Also, you do not want to destroy the employment at will.
It seems to me that your issue will not be the general conversion as it effects most employees, although converting what may be unpaid and unused sick leave when people quit/are fired/retire into a paid leave will create funding problems. Some may choose to cash out immediately.
What strikes me is the issue of how you ever got to the point of unlimited accumulation of sick leave in the first place.
The big cost will be the one or two people who have a major illness or worker's comp claim and will be gone for months. Full sick leave benefits may be more lucrative than partial disability benefits, and there are many conditions that will have an employee gone for months or even years when you may still have to bring them back to a job. Carrying a vacancy that long will be painful in the extreme (I have yet to seen that many cities with a large stock of unnecessary employees, and you said that this was a town, so even fewer employees typically). Moreover, when they see that the former system was more beneficial in their circumstances, you can be sure that they will "remember" that they never wanted the conversion in the first place; and without a union, the vote of the majority is meaningless.
I remember a chief of police who was gone but on payroll for 8 months (as I recall). In a small or even a medium department, that can be painful and you may not have appropriate replacements.
Mike Vanderburg
Ponca City
From: Oama [mailto:oama-bounces@lists.imla.org] On Behalf Of Kimberlee Spady
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:24 PM
To: 'Joe Weaver'; oama@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: Re: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
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I am attaching a screen shot of a Facebook post by a friend. I am generally an advocate for general PTO instead of separate vacation & sick leave but this post causes me pause, quite honestly. This mindset would not be immediately evident but I can see it happening before too long - employees believe they don't have any sick leave at all. So you end up with people who should not be at work spreading their gunk AND being ineffective (and probably distracting).
I know this isn't necessarily responsive to your question, Joe, but it immediately came to mind.
Kimberlee T. Spady
Attorney & Counselor at Law
406 N. Broadway, Suite D
Post Office Box 433
Hinton, Oklahoma 73047
Telephone: 405-542-6056
Email: Kim@SpadyLaw.commailto:Kim@SpadyLaw.com
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From: Oama <oama-bounces@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama-bounces@lists.imla.org> On Behalf Of Joe Weaver
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:03 PM
To: oama@lists.imla.orgmailto:oama@lists.imla.org
Subject: [Oama] Combining vacation time and sick leave into Paid Time Off (PTO)
Town currently provides its employees with vacation days and sick days. Sick days can be carried over without limitation. Unlike vacation days, employees are not reimbursed for unused sick days. Employees have requested that vacation and sick leave be combined into PTO which will have limits on carry over. It is my understanding employees do not want to explain their time off. Several employees have accumulated significant sick leave and they are concerned in the event of a severe illness that may cause them to be off work for a significant period of time. Can Town enact a policy re PTO that eliminates all or a significant portion of sick leave days accrued by employees? Again, employees do not get paid for unused sick days.
Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe Weaver
Joe Weaver
Attorney At Law
405.262.4040
405.262.4058 fax
joe@basslaw.netmailto:agbass@basslaw.net
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