Re: [PCW] go-anywhere power cats (Robert Deering), Jones Act
Hi Bob,
My maths with the extra 30% was working back the other way. Our ex-factory
price is expected to come out around USD$1.1m , then freight & US duty & tax
to add. A US built 55 footer to a high standard ex-factory I would expect
around $1.7-$2.2m depending how much trouble the builder gets himself into
and his level of efficiency, local labour rates, standard of gear & fit out
etc.
Typically we are at least 1/3 less expensive in NZ for our Activa mono's
than Kiwi & Aussie built 60 footers, in NZD we are between $1.6-$1.9m
freight, tax & duty paid depending on options & exchange rates VS local 60's
which cost around NZD$2.5-$3.2m tax paid (with less freight, no duty to
include) We do raised pilothouse-cruising mono's VS their sportfish-
cruising mono's so our volume is greater but displacement more, speed less,
horsepower same.
I'm interested in this Jones Act, it looks confusing. I see some Grand Banks
boats offered for charter from the Northwest- GB being a
Malaysian/Singaporean built product. Would they be Vancouver based to get
around it? Same in Florida, a few foreign built boats for charter, perhaps
pick-up in Bahama's? I've heard many superyachts operate this way, they can
1-way charter in US waters, pick up or drop off only but not both. Anyone on
the list know more about this Jones Act? Would be interested to know more.
We built 2 of our demo boats to charter survey last year, but around 9 out
of 10 prospects we speak to have no intention of doing it.
Regards,
John Winter- +6421454107
http://www.adventurebay.co.nz/
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:35:03 -0800
From: Robert Deering deering@ak.net
Subject: Re: [PCW] go-anywhere power cats
To: 'Power Catamaran List' power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: 000001c8146d$4e57d930$1901a8c0@BobTablet
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
"...even if it costs them 30% more which we estimate can add
around USD$500,000 or more on a boat this size."
If my rusty math skills still serve, that suggests a (made in China) price
of about $1.7M. About what I expected. For a boat that doesn't exist yet,
except in marketing promotions such as Mr. Winter's.
Keep in mind that the Jones Act in the US prohibits using foreign hulls for
hire. You may have no intention of using this boat in a charter biz, but
someday you'll want to sell it and your pool of buyers just got a lot
smaller. But then, if you can afford a $1.7M+ boat, resale's probably not a
big concern for you.
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
John,
Thanks for the pricing clarification. Better, but still far out of my
range.
I'm no Jones Act expert, but I understand that it was passed as legislation
to protect American ship builders from low-priced foreign competitors...you
know, like you.
The ruling basically says that a ship (boat) for hire may not originate in
one US port and terminate in another unless its hull is US-built. That's
why for many years cruise ships (foreign hulls) running to Alaska departed
from Vancouver BC instead of Seattle. I understand that some of the ships
now depart from Seattle so they must have achieved an exemption since
Seattle was missing out on a lot of tourist revenue.
I'm not aware of many charter boat exemptions. The Grand Banks Northwest
question relates to bare-boat charters I believe which must not be subject
to the Jones Act.
Certainly most people buying a new $1M+ 55 ft boat aren't thinking charter.
It's the people that buy the boat from them that start to fall into that
group. But buying expensive boats isn't an inherently rational process
anyway, so it's unreasonable to expect most buyers to give resale value much
consideration.
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
The Jones Act does not apply to bare boat charters or 6 Pac ( 6 passengers or
less). There has been some easing of the regs in the last few years and you
can now apply for a 12 passenger license by making a $500 application for an
administrative exception. For many years this was accomplished by having your
local congressman attach a bill exempting your vessel to another pork barrel
bill that would sail through congress.
Hope that helps.
Tim A
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 21:32:38 -0800> From: deering@ak.net> To:
john@adventurebay.co.nz; power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com> Subject: Re: [PCW]
go-anywhere power cats (Robert Deering), Jones Act> > John,> > Thanks for the
pricing clarification. Better, but still far out of my> range.> > I'm no Jones
Act expert, but I understand that it was passed as legislation> to protect
American ship builders from low-priced foreign competitors...you> know, like
you.> > The ruling basically says that a ship (boat) for hire may not
originate in> one US port and terminate in another unless its hull is
US-built. That's> why for many years cruise ships (foreign hulls) running to
Alaska departed> from Vancouver BC instead of Seattle. I understand that some
of the ships> now depart from Seattle so they must have achieved an exemption
since> Seattle was missing out on a lot of tourist revenue.> > I'm not aware
of many charter boat exemptions. The Grand Banks Northwest> question relates
to bare-boat charters I believe which must not be subject> to the Jones Act.>
Certainly most people buying a new $1M+ 55 ft boat aren't thinking charter.>
It's the people that buy the boat from them that start to fall into that>
group. But buying expensive boats isn't an inherently rational process>
anyway, so it's unreasonable to expect most buyers to give resale value much>
consideration. > > > Bob Deering> Juneau, Alaska >
_______________________________________________> Power-Catamaran Mailing List
Bob, John and others--
Hold your horses on the Jones Act until I get an update as to the
facts in 2007.
I believe the recap by Tim Askins describes the situation, but I'll
doublecheck.
--Georgs
Thanks for the pricing clarification. Better, but still far out of my
range.
I'm no Jones Act expert, but I understand that it was passed as legislation
to protect American ship builders from low-priced foreign competitors...you
know, like you.
The ruling basically says that a ship (boat) for hire may not originate in
one US port and terminate in another unless its hull is US-built. That's
why for many years cruise ships (foreign hulls) running to Alaska departed
from Vancouver BC instead of Seattle. I understand that some of the ships
now depart from Seattle so they must have achieved an exemption since
Seattle was missing out on a lot of tourist revenue.
I'm not aware of many charter boat exemptions. The Grand Banks Northwest
question relates to bare-boat charters I believe which must not be subject
to the Jones Act.
Certainly most people buying a new $1M+ 55 ft boat aren't thinking charter.
It's the people that buy the boat from them that start to fall into that
group. But buying expensive boats isn't an inherently rational process
anyway, so it's unreasonable to expect most buyers to give resale value much
consideration.
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
Power-Catamaran Mailing List
In answer, the Jones Act is a U.S. protectionist act that goes back to 1935
that prevents foreign built vessels from enacting inter U.S. commerce i.e.
U.S. port to U.S. port (which is why foreign built and flagged cruise ships
can pick up and drop off in U.S. since all of the intermediate ports of call
are foreign).
Smaller yachts get around this by "Bare Boat" chartering, which means
someone can "rent" the boat without crew, provide their "own" crew (usually
a separate contract) and thus charter the boat. This is for a maximum of 12
passengers. If you require a U.S. Coastguard inspected vessel, which is
generally required for virtually any other type of charter, rent or for hire
activity you will need a U.S. built vessel unless you receive a waiver (see
a previous response).
Hope this helps some.
Kevin Ralph
Regency Yachts LLC
Office: 954 563 0666
Cell: 954 648 0855
Fax: 954 564 4244
e-mail: kevinr @regencyyachts.com
Scan for vessels for sale or charter, by size, budget, manufacture or boat
name at www.regencyyachts.com.
-----Original Message-----
From: power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:power-catamaran-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of John Winter
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 12:59 AM
To: power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PCW] go-anywhere power cats (Robert Deering), Jones Act
Hi Bob,
My maths with the extra 30% was working back the other way. Our ex-factory
price is expected to come out around USD$1.1m , then freight & US duty & tax
to add. A US built 55 footer to a high standard ex-factory I would expect
around $1.7-$2.2m depending how much trouble the builder gets himself into
and his level of efficiency, local labour rates, standard of gear & fit out
etc.
Typically we are at least 1/3 less expensive in NZ for our Activa mono's
than Kiwi & Aussie built 60 footers, in NZD we are between $1.6-$1.9m
freight, tax & duty paid depending on options & exchange rates VS local 60's
which cost around NZD$2.5-$3.2m tax paid (with less freight, no duty to
include) We do raised pilothouse-cruising mono's VS their sportfish-
cruising mono's so our volume is greater but displacement more, speed less,
horsepower same.
I'm interested in this Jones Act, it looks confusing. I see some Grand Banks
boats offered for charter from the Northwest- GB being a
Malaysian/Singaporean built product. Would they be Vancouver based to get
around it? Same in Florida, a few foreign built boats for charter, perhaps
pick-up in Bahama's? I've heard many superyachts operate this way, they can
1-way charter in US waters, pick up or drop off only but not both. Anyone on
the list know more about this Jones Act? Would be interested to know more.
We built 2 of our demo boats to charter survey last year, but around 9 out
of 10 prospects we speak to have no intention of doing it.
Regards,
John Winter- +6421454107
http://www.adventurebay.co.nz/
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:35:03 -0800
From: Robert Deering deering@ak.net
Subject: Re: [PCW] go-anywhere power cats
To: 'Power Catamaran List' power-catamaran@lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: 000001c8146d$4e57d930$1901a8c0@BobTablet
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
"...even if it costs them 30% more which we estimate can add
around USD$500,000 or more on a boat this size."
If my rusty math skills still serve, that suggests a (made in China) price
of about $1.7M. About what I expected. For a boat that doesn't exist yet,
except in marketing promotions such as Mr. Winter's.
Keep in mind that the Jones Act in the US prohibits using foreign hulls for
hire. You may have no intention of using this boat in a charter biz, but
someday you'll want to sell it and your pool of buyers just got a lot
smaller. But then, if you can afford a $1.7M+ boat, resale's probably not a
big concern for you.
Bob Deering
Juneau, Alaska
Power-Catamaran Mailing List