Hello Nuts, I have been playing a bit tuning a Thunderbolt with Lady Heather and now have more questions than answers. The collective time-nut brain would be appreciated. 1. Using the '&' command I can change the damping and time constant in LH. Are these values immediately transferred to the TB? 2. Do I have to use the LH 'e' command to permenantly save new damping and time constant values to the TB? 3. After using the '&' and 'e' command the lock-in behaviour of the TB does not seem to change. Is this normal behaviour? Is one set of values used when locking and the adjusted values used once it is phase locked? 4.Is there some way to read out the values stored in the TB? When I use the 'e' command on the TB, change values in LH, then restart LH and the TB I see the last values given to LH, and not what I thought was saved with the 'e' command. 5. If the TB is placed in hold mode and the DAC set to 0.0 volts it actually goes to 0.2 volts (min is at -5, max is at +5, and iv is 0.0 which it actually starts at on power up). Anyone know why? Thanks in advance for any guidance! Regards, Skip Withrow

Hi > On Jan 23, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Skip Withrow <skip.withrow@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello Nuts, > I have been playing a bit tuning a Thunderbolt with Lady Heather and now > have more questions than answers. The collective time-nut brain would be > appreciated. > > 1. Using the '&' command I can change the damping and time constant in LH. > Are these values immediately transferred to the TB? yes, but … > > 2. Do I have to use the LH 'e' command to permenantly save new damping and > time constant values to the TB? yes > > 3. After using the '&' and 'e' command the lock-in behaviour of the TB does > not seem to change. Is this normal behaviour? Is one set of values used > when locking and the adjusted values used once it is phase locked? only used in phase lock, not in frequency lock or phase alignment. > > 4.Is there some way to read out the values stored in the TB? When I use > the 'e' command on the TB, change values in LH, then restart LH and the TB > I see the last values given to LH, and not what I thought was saved with > the 'e' command at least on mine, LH reports the saved values. > > 5. If the TB is placed in hold mode and the DAC set to 0.0 volts it > actually goes to 0.2 volts (min is at -5, max is at +5, and iv is 0.0 which > it actually starts at on power up). Anyone know why? > It will use the stored value if it does not have adequate confidence in the holdover value. In holdover mode it will go back to it’s “best guess” holdover value rather than just locking at the current DAC. Bob > Thanks in advance for any guidance! > Regards, > Skip Withrow > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

Hi Maybe a bit more information, much of it applies to all GPSDO’s : The TBolt first goes through a process to get the OCXO roughly on frequency and to get the PPS approximately aligned. That process is not impacted by the time constant and damping. The OCXO goes a bit crazy during this process. It then starts the phase lock process with a short time constant. As the OCXO settles in, it will step out to a progressively longer time constant. It does this based on it’s internal estimates of lock quality. Unless you are already at maximum time constant and have a good internal estimate, changing the time constant has no immediate impact. On most GPSDO’s and with most OCXO’s under most conditions, the step out process takes days or weeks. The damping number does impact the performance in the maximum time constant mode. It may be scaled as the time constant is changed. There does appear to be a D in the TBolt loop. For what ever reason, that’s not a changeable value. The D does scale with the time constant. When in lock mode, the TBolt is a PLL and not a FLL. As the “phase in” (the pps from the gps) moves, the frequency of the OCXO will change to keep the “phase out” (PPS output) aligned. As the unit is running, it keeps track of the average DAC value that puts the OCXO on frequency. Since it’s a PLL, that number may or may not be the last instantaneous value of the DAC when it goes into holdover. Since it’s running a PLL, the PPS output will indeed be the best value, so no correction is needed there when it goes into holdover (not quite true, but that is the assumption made). This operation is very typical of all of the cell site GPSDO’s. The only part that is unique to the TBolt is the ability to fiddle the loop characteristics a bit. Bob > On Jan 23, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Skip Withrow <skip.withrow@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello Nuts, > I have been playing a bit tuning a Thunderbolt with Lady Heather and now > have more questions than answers. The collective time-nut brain would be > appreciated. > > 1. Using the '&' command I can change the damping and time constant in LH. > Are these values immediately transferred to the TB? > > 2. Do I have to use the LH 'e' command to permenantly save new damping and > time constant values to the TB? > > 3. After using the '&' and 'e' command the lock-in behaviour of the TB does > not seem to change. Is this normal behaviour? Is one set of values used > when locking and the adjusted values used once it is phase locked? > > 4.Is there some way to read out the values stored in the TB? When I use > the 'e' command on the TB, change values in LH, then restart LH and the TB > I see the last values given to LH, and not what I thought was saved with > the 'e' command. > > 5. If the TB is placed in hold mode and the DAC set to 0.0 volts it > actually goes to 0.2 volts (min is at -5, max is at +5, and iv is 0.0 which > it actually starts at on power up). Anyone know why? > > Thanks in advance for any guidance! > Regards, > Skip Withrow > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

"This operation is very typical of all of the cell site GPSDO’s. The only part that is unique to the TBolt is the ability to fiddle the loop characteristics a bit." And the fact that the GPS's CPU clock is derived from the 10MHz and therefore aligned to the PPS so there is no hanging bridge and sawtooth correction is not required. I am not aware of any other GPSDO implementing that scheme, which is very elegant in its simplicity. Didier KO4BB On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 8:18 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > Hi > > Maybe a bit more information, much of it applies to all GPSDO’s : > > The TBolt first goes through a process to get the OCXO roughly on > frequency and to get the PPS approximately aligned. That process is not > impacted by the time constant and damping. The OCXO goes a bit crazy during > this process. > > It then starts the phase lock process with a short time constant. As the > OCXO settles in, it will step out to a progressively longer time constant. > It does this based on it’s internal estimates of lock quality. Unless you > are already at maximum time constant and have a good internal estimate, > changing the time constant has no immediate impact. On most GPSDO’s and > with most OCXO’s under most conditions, the step out process takes days or > weeks. > > The damping number does impact the performance in the maximum time > constant mode. It may be scaled as the time constant is changed. > > There does appear to be a D in the TBolt loop. For what ever reason, > that’s not a changeable value. The D does scale with the time constant. > > When in lock mode, the TBolt is a PLL and not a FLL. As the “phase in” > (the pps from the gps) moves, the frequency of the OCXO will change to keep > the “phase out” (PPS output) aligned. As the unit is running, it keeps > track of the average DAC value that puts the OCXO on frequency. Since it’s > a PLL, that number may or may not be the last instantaneous value of the > DAC when it goes into holdover. Since it’s running a PLL, the PPS output > will indeed be the best value, so no correction is needed there when it > goes into holdover (not quite true, but that is the assumption made). > > This operation is very typical of all of the cell site GPSDO’s. The only > part that is unique to the TBolt is the ability to fiddle the loop > characteristics a bit. > > Bob > > > On Jan 23, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Skip Withrow <skip.withrow@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Hello Nuts, > > I have been playing a bit tuning a Thunderbolt with Lady Heather and now > > have more questions than answers. The collective time-nut brain would be > > appreciated. > > > > 1. Using the '&' command I can change the damping and time constant in > LH. > > Are these values immediately transferred to the TB? > > > > 2. Do I have to use the LH 'e' command to permenantly save new damping > and > > time constant values to the TB? > > > > 3. After using the '&' and 'e' command the lock-in behaviour of the TB > does > > not seem to change. Is this normal behaviour? Is one set of values used > > when locking and the adjusted values used once it is phase locked? > > > > 4.Is there some way to read out the values stored in the TB? When I use > > the 'e' command on the TB, change values in LH, then restart LH and the > TB > > I see the last values given to LH, and not what I thought was saved with > > the 'e' command. > > > > 5. If the TB is placed in hold mode and the DAC set to 0.0 volts it > > actually goes to 0.2 volts (min is at -5, max is at +5, and iv is 0.0 > which > > it actually starts at on power up). Anyone know why? > > > > Thanks in advance for any guidance! > > Regards, > > Skip Withrow > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

Hi > On Jan 25, 2015, at 10:59 AM, Didier Juges <shalimr9@gmail.com> wrote: > > "This operation is very typical of all of the cell site GPSDO’s. The only > part that is unique to the TBolt is the ability to fiddle the loop > characteristics a bit." > > And the fact that the GPS's CPU clock is derived from the 10MHz and > therefore aligned to the PPS so there is no hanging bridge and sawtooth > correction is not required. > > I am not aware of any other GPSDO implementing that scheme, which is very > elegant in its simplicity. It is indeed an elegant solution. Based on looking at 1 pps outputs on a group of them over a year or more, It’s actual impact on the control loop function is pretty minor compared to a properly executed sawtooth correction process. It would have a significant advantage if compared to a GPSDO that does not use sawtooth correction. Bob > > Didier KO4BB > > > On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 8:18 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org> wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Maybe a bit more information, much of it applies to all GPSDO’s : >> >> The TBolt first goes through a process to get the OCXO roughly on >> frequency and to get the PPS approximately aligned. That process is not >> impacted by the time constant and damping. The OCXO goes a bit crazy during >> this process. >> >> It then starts the phase lock process with a short time constant. As the >> OCXO settles in, it will step out to a progressively longer time constant. >> It does this based on it’s internal estimates of lock quality. Unless you >> are already at maximum time constant and have a good internal estimate, >> changing the time constant has no immediate impact. On most GPSDO’s and >> with most OCXO’s under most conditions, the step out process takes days or >> weeks. >> >> The damping number does impact the performance in the maximum time >> constant mode. It may be scaled as the time constant is changed. >> >> There does appear to be a D in the TBolt loop. For what ever reason, >> that’s not a changeable value. The D does scale with the time constant. >> >> When in lock mode, the TBolt is a PLL and not a FLL. As the “phase in” >> (the pps from the gps) moves, the frequency of the OCXO will change to keep >> the “phase out” (PPS output) aligned. As the unit is running, it keeps >> track of the average DAC value that puts the OCXO on frequency. Since it’s >> a PLL, that number may or may not be the last instantaneous value of the >> DAC when it goes into holdover. Since it’s running a PLL, the PPS output >> will indeed be the best value, so no correction is needed there when it >> goes into holdover (not quite true, but that is the assumption made). >> >> This operation is very typical of all of the cell site GPSDO’s. The only >> part that is unique to the TBolt is the ability to fiddle the loop >> characteristics a bit. >> >> Bob >> >>> On Jan 23, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Skip Withrow <skip.withrow@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Nuts, >>> I have been playing a bit tuning a Thunderbolt with Lady Heather and now >>> have more questions than answers. The collective time-nut brain would be >>> appreciated. >>> >>> 1. Using the '&' command I can change the damping and time constant in >> LH. >>> Are these values immediately transferred to the TB? >>> >>> 2. Do I have to use the LH 'e' command to permenantly save new damping >> and >>> time constant values to the TB? >>> >>> 3. After using the '&' and 'e' command the lock-in behaviour of the TB >> does >>> not seem to change. Is this normal behaviour? Is one set of values used >>> when locking and the adjusted values used once it is phase locked? >>> >>> 4.Is there some way to read out the values stored in the TB? When I use >>> the 'e' command on the TB, change values in LH, then restart LH and the >> TB >>> I see the last values given to LH, and not what I thought was saved with >>> the 'e' command. >>> >>> 5. If the TB is placed in hold mode and the DAC set to 0.0 volts it >>> actually goes to 0.2 volts (min is at -5, max is at +5, and iv is 0.0 >> which >>> it actually starts at on power up). Anyone know why? >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any guidance! >>> Regards, >>> Skip Withrow >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.