At 09:40 AM 9/13/00 -0400, pjr13@home.com wrote:

I really don't think you could build one like it for any less money.  They
are built with the same materials and skills as a heavy hydraulic cylinder.
Keep in mind that these are "bullet proof" filters that were designed for
industrial use for off shore oil rigs and such.  They have never made a
"home owner's" model.  As it turns out, they are very competitive with
similar filters.  In the long run, they are by far the cheapest alternative,
given the cost of the replacement elements.

At 10:15 AM 9/13/00 -0400, pjr13@home.com wrote:

For as much as you probably use your boat, your cost-benefit analysis will
favor the Racor.

The same analysis in my case strongly favors the GCF.

All that assumes that you are going to buy on price alone.  While the
performance of the Racor is very good, the performance of the GCF is much
better.  Reliability also favors the GCF.  I got tired of seeing a huge box
of broken and leaky Racors on our shelf waiting for a mechanic to have
enough spare time to install the rebuild kits.  Basically, it never happens
and the pile keeps growing.  I don't see any broken or leaky GCF filters on
the shelf, though.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
::
Paul and Cindy Kruse      ::  KJV Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you,
165 South Kenneth Court    ::  my peace I give unto you:
Merritt Island, FL  32952  ::  not as the world giveth, give I unto you.
E-mail:  plkruse@iu.net    ::  Let not your heart be troubled,
407-453-6206              ::  neither let it be afraid.
::
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that the
O1-jr GCF could
be used for a fuel polishing filter, and at around $100,
seems to be a
reasonable solution.  For this unit you use a roll of toilet
paper.

Did I miss something?

Mike
Mike Tellup
Party of Five - 34 Mainship II
Havre de Grace, MD

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Kruse plkruse@iu.net

analysis...Bounty at $1.69, Racor

Lehmans and a genset and

missing something

While the

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Tellup" tellup@erols.com

Hi Mike,

The O-1jr would be just fine in a polishing system. In fact it has the
advantage of needing significantly less room (as well as the lower price).

The disadvantage is speed; As the racers say "Speed costs money, how fast do
you want to go." Another disadvantage could be capacity but that's probably
not a concern if you are buying fuel that is reasonably clean already.

Getting back to the speed issue. That's not very important either when you
consider that fuel polishing is a "background process". In other words,
you're going to be doing other things while the polishing is going on so who
cares if it takes longer?

Frugally yours,

Alex

Paul Kruse wrote:

Paul,
I agree with you. If you use your boat little then probably the GCF doesn't make
much sense. If you use the boat a lot then they make a lot of sense. Not only
because of the price and availability of the elements, (paper towels), but the
degree of filtration and the resultant reduction in wear. This wear reduction
both in the engine, (oil filtration), and the injectors, (fuel filtration).
We have had the valve covers off twice for valve clearance adjustment, there has
been zero accumulation of sludge or other "stuff" on the heads, they look brand
new after over 2,000 engine hours. The mechanics were amazed. One shop owner
told me that they didn't recommend the GCF oil filters because much of their
profit came from oil changes. We are very happy with ours.
Dolph and Bev McCranie
M/V The Right Whale

Reflecting on my original thoughts, I suspect the cost/benefit analysis
would be more positive if I factored in not having to replace the 12 quarts
of oil in each Lehman every 100 hours.  Is anyone using the O1-JR filters on
Lehman 120s?  Does filtered oil wear out?  My merchant marine pals say
definitely not...

                                         Regards...

Phil Rosch
"Dolly Surprise" MT-44DC
Wakefield, RI

Racor

and

something

I'll

----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip J. Rosch" pjr13@home.com

quarts

Hi Phil,

Those two things are related.

Oil CAN wear out. Don't let anyone tell you differently. There is, however,
evidence that it doesn't always happen.

First it might be useful to mention the ways that oil "wears out" (that's
really not a good term, but what the heck):

1. The oil base stocks can oxidize which leads to a viscosity increase and
   to sludge deposits. Oxidation can be caused by excessive temperatures or
   the presence of certain wear metal contaminates in the oil.

2. The oil gets diluted with fuel which leads to a viscosity decrease. Note
   that these to phenomena do NOT balance each other although they can make it
   more difficult to separate and measure them. Fuel dilution should not be a
   problem if the engine is in good condition and run properly.

3. All of the additives normally found in motor oil do their job by being
   chemically used up. The details of how that works differ but they all can
   get used up.

4. In the case of multi-grade oils (15w40 or 10w30) there is another
   component in the oil generically called a polymer. As the name implies these
   are very long chain molecules and, in some cases they can be physically
   chopped up by the rotating elements in the engine. Most premium oils are
   made with polymers that are specifically formulated to avoid this problem
   (that's what they mean by terms like "turbo tested" etc.).

Having said all that, there is convincing anecdotal evidence that the
deterioration of motor oil can be drastically reduced if the oil is kept
sufficiently clean, dry, and within the proper temperature range. Oil
temperature is outside the realm of this discussion. Suffice it to say that
oil temp is mainly affected by the length of time the engine is operated and
if you normally run your boat for at least an hour or so at a time you're
fine.

In an engine that is properly broken in and that has clean oil in the sump
there is apparently very little for the anti-wear additive to do. OTOH:
Throw in a bit of 20 micron dirt and the AW additive will plate out as
needed to cover any resulting minute scratches.

Antioxidant additives (sometimes the AW additive doing double duty) work to
neutralize those wear metals that promote oil oxidation. Filter out the wear
metals and the antioxidant doesn't have much to do either.

Detergent/dispersant additives work by binding to whatever crud is in the
oil and holding it in suspension until the filter can remove it. Apparently,
if the filter removes the crud quickly enough there is less call for the
det/dis additive to "bulk up" the crud so a less efficient filter can catch
it.

Detergent/dispersants also impart the total base number (TBN) to the oil.
Some of the combustion byproducts produced in a diesel engine are NOx and
SOx which combine with water to form nitric acid and sulfuric acid
respectively (slight oversimplification). TBN is a measure of the oil's
ability to neutralize those acids. If there is no water then there is
no acid formed and the NOx and SOx remain in gaseous form and leave the
engine through the vent.

I'm still a bit skeptical that a GCF or other cellulose depth filter could
remove water from motor oil but I must admit that the evidence I've seen
from Paul Kruse, Capt Wil, and Charlie Sims (GCF honcho) seems to indicate
just that.

So, oil can wear out but it doesn't have to; Does that mean you can slap a
bypass filter on your engine and forget about it?

NO!

First, your engine must be in good shape to start with and you must run it
properly to fully realize the benefits of this type of filtration.

Second, you must set up a program of oil analysis. Oil analysis is a good
idea in any case but if you're going to go to extended drain intervals then
sampling is imperative. Without analysis you really don't know much about
what is going on inside your engine. That fact is neither great nor horrible
if you're changing oil every 100 hours because most of the problems are
disposed of when you drain the oil. OTOH: If you leave the oil in place
without monitoring a problem could develop and become expensive before you
know about it. If your owners manual recommends a 100 hour drain interval
then you should be sampling the oil that often in the beginning. Once you've
established a history you could probably sample less frequently.

Finally, you don't get out of buying oil completely. You still have to
change both your full flow and bypass filters regularly. I'm not sure what
GCF recommends as an element change interval for their O-1jr but it seems
reasonable to start out with that same 100 hour figure and then to adjust
the interval according to your analysis results. A new roll of TP and a new
spin-on equals at least two quarts of oil.

In conclusion; There are a number of reasons that a bypass motor oil filter
like the GCF is a useful piece of equipment. For most recreational boaters
economy and labor saving are not among those reasons.

TANSTAAFL'ly yours,

Alex

Soon I will be installing a 01-Jr GCF for fuel polishing on my small Dyer
29. Why? The gas (yes gas) tanks on the vessel are fouled and pumping them
"dry" did not improve the situation. I was advised on-site by Charlie Bell,
the fellow behind www.fuelpolishing.com , that the roll of toilet tissue can
absorb 1 quart of water. I have to buy a 40ghp electric fuel pump as my
engine does not use one. As Walbro no longer certifies its pumps for gas, I
will be going to auto supply stores tomorrow. It is estimated that I will
run each 44 gallon (too small!) tank through the filter 3 times, changing
rolls each time. Then I sally forth and seek out wakes and 4 foot waves on
the Chesapeake too stir up the stuff in the tanks - and change rolls again.
An ineffective visit by a good fuel cleaning company cost me $250. They
would be happy to charge me again to get the stuff that was left after the
first cleaning. No thank you. A one-time cost to install the GCF is far
better. Charlie showed me the oil in his van - after 10,000 miles, it looked
brand new. BTW, each time I change a roll, I will likely have to replace up
to a quart of oil.

I'll let you know how this works out - we're waiting for more filters to
come in. He also showed me the larger filters - high tolerance machining
throughout. Think about it, they are under pressure as oil filters and are
protecting engines worth up to $5 million dollars (oil rig CNG engine.) The
unit has to be perfect or big liability problems.

Ron Rogers
Annapolis, MD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Tellup" tellup@erols.com
To: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:26 PM
Subject: TWL: Re: Re: GCF