3458A Questions - The Sequel
Considering all the info this group supplied, I wound up with a new (to me)
3458A that was offered on theBay as a BIN or Best Offer. We negotiated back
and forth and I wound up with SN 2823A18533, no options, delivered for less
than $3800. Perhaps more than the $2500 suggested by other list members but
I am happy.
It has been on for about a month now and reads my two Fluke 731B's about 15
uV apart and it drifts up and down about 10 uV, P-P, at 10V, but with a
relatively stable 15 uV difference between the 731B's. It has ver 8.2
firmware and all the date codes on the chips along with the dates stamped on
the various covers and boards are all around Aug 1997. The bottom cover has
'Aug 20 1997' and the top cover has 'AUG 22 1997' stamped on. IIRC, Agilent
was born around 1999. Later, in the early 2000's, manufacturing was moved
from the US to Malaysia.
I talked to the folks at Agilent regarding 'new vs. a fine vintage' and they
suggested, similar to others on the list, that a 'fine vintage' at the right
price coupled with their 'Repair Per Incident' at $2363.56 would be the
preferred approach. They basically disassemble the unit, check everything,
including the 'crimps' on the cables, repair or replace whatever is needed,
test it 'to new standards', do a 'Gold Cal' (IIRC), and return it basically
as a 'new unit' including the option to purchase a 3 year extended warranty
on the meter.
The 'drift' issue of the reference is not tested for a non Option 002 unit
but when the next 'Gold Cal' is done, the drift would be provided as
compared to the first 'Gold Cal'.
List members suggested that I back up 'CALRAM' ASAP. I would agree. How do
I do it? The Dallas chips are soldered in place. By HPIB I presume? That
means that I am finally going to have to solve the 'HPIB issue'. Or is it
available from the front panel?
Of course, if I send it back to Agilent, backing up 'CALRAM' is less
important, at this time at least.
My A5 board is 03458-66505 Rev C. I note that the Option 001 board is
03458-66515. Other than the installation of the four HM66256LP-12 chips,
which would appear to be about a $30 investment, is there any difference
between the boards? Does the firmware need to be changed to acknowledge the
presence of Option 001? Is there a way to tell if the chips are installed
using front panel controls? Using HPIB? I notice that there are two
'jumpers' in the vicinity, JM600 and JM132. Are these involved? On my
board, both jumpers connect the center pin and the pin to the left, as
viewed from the front, and as shown on the labeling on the board.
I also note that on my A5 board, there is a single ST M27C4002-12F1 chip,
soldered in place, instead of the six TM27C512's shown in the CLIP and the
ALRM. Unless there is a way to read the chip, installed, erase it,
installed, and reprogram it, installed, to upgrade the firmware to ver 9
would require the removal of the chip, installation of a socket, then
installing a new chip with the latest data programmed in. I don't know if
this is done or not. When I spoke with the folks at Agilent, I was given
the impression that part of the 'repair' was to upgrade everything to the
latest version by replacing the appropriate components rather than replacing
the various boards, citing the desire not to change the 'character' of the
meter by virtue of keeping all the 'aged' components possible.
Therefore, the question arises as to how practical is it to remove the three
Dallas chips (perhaps it is only one that needs to be archived) and the
single EPROM with a hot air rework station, install sockets, archive the
data, then reinstall the chips in the newly installed sockets? Is the board
just a dual level board or multiple layers? If I am going to send it back
to Agilent for their 'repair', would it be desirable to make the attempt
now?
Again, thanks to everyone on the list for their input and I look forward to
more input.
Joe
In message D882AF43C6DA44169877C4AB9ADEF0AB@cardiac5f772ce, "J. L. Trantham"
writes:
List members suggested that I back up 'CALRAM' ASAP. I would agree. How do
I do it? The Dallas chips are soldered in place. By HPIB I presume? That
means that I am finally going to have to solve the 'HPIB issue'. Or is it
available from the front panel?
Yes, HPIB is the only non-solder way to do it.
The necessary commands/code to do it can be found here:
https://github.com/bsdphk/pylt/blob/master/hp3458a.py
I also note that on my A5 board, there is a single ST M27C4002-12F1 chip,
soldered in place, instead of the six TM27C512's shown in the CLIP and the
ALRM. Unless there is a way to read the chip, installed, erase it,
installed, and reprogram it, installed, to upgrade the firmware to ver 9
would require the removal of the chip, installation of a socket, then
installing a new chip with the latest data programmed in.
You can read it via HPIB, using the MREAD command.
If it has a window for UV radiation you could erase it in place,
but since it requires 12.75V for programming, it would take non-nice
hackery to program it in place, and I would only attempt it, stranded
on a dessert island with absolutely no other choice.
latest version by replacing the appropriate components rather than replacing
the various boards, citing the desire not to change the 'character' of the
meter by virtue of keeping all the 'aged' components possible.
The A5 board is just a microcomputer board, there is no analog on
it at all, so I'm pretty sure they would just replace that one.
Therefore, the question arises as to how practical is it to remove the three
Dallas chips (perhaps it is only one that needs to be archived)
Only the small one needs to be archived, and you can do so over HPIB.
In my case, unsoldering the NVRAMs were very easy: bit holes, small
legs and absolutely no trouble.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Best is to solder out the Dallas RAMs and the EPROM. You can then put sockets in. The Dallas RAMs are readable as an eprom and on an eprom programmer also writable. Desoldering and soldering new sockets took me an hour. My firmware is marked 9017. Does anyone has a newer version on file.
Regards
info at ElectronicsAndBooks dot com
http://ElectronicsAndBooks.com
From: J. L. Trantham jltran@att.net
To: volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 5:41 AM
Subject: [volt-nuts] 3458A Questions - The Sequel
Considering all the info this group supplied, I wound up with a new (to me)
3458A that was offered on theBay as a BIN or Best Offer. We negotiated back
and forth and I wound up with SN 2823A18533, no options, delivered for less
than $3800. Perhaps more than the $2500 suggested by other list members but
I am happy.
It has been on for about a month now and reads my two Fluke 731B's about 15
uV apart and it drifts up and down about 10 uV, P-P, at 10V, but with a
relatively stable 15 uV difference between the 731B's. It has ver 8.2
firmware and all the date codes on the chips along with the dates stamped on
the various covers and boards are all around Aug 1997. The bottom cover has
'Aug 20 1997' and the top cover has 'AUG 22 1997' stamped on. IIRC, Agilent
was born around 1999. Later, in the early 2000's, manufacturing was moved
from the US to Malaysia.
I talked to the folks at Agilent regarding 'new vs. a fine vintage' and they
suggested, similar to others on the list, that a 'fine vintage' at the right
price coupled with their 'Repair Per Incident' at $2363.56 would be the
preferred approach. They basically disassemble the unit, check everything,
including the 'crimps' on the cables, repair or replace whatever is needed,
test it 'to new standards', do a 'Gold Cal' (IIRC), and return it basically
as a 'new unit' including the option to purchase a 3 year extended warranty
on the meter.
The 'drift' issue of the reference is not tested for a non Option 002 unit
but when the next 'Gold Cal' is done, the drift would be provided as
compared to the first 'Gold Cal'.
List members suggested that I back up 'CALRAM' ASAP. I would agree. How do
I do it? The Dallas chips are soldered in place. By HPIB I presume? That
means that I am finally going to have to solve the 'HPIB issue'. Or is it
available from the front panel?
Of course, if I send it back to Agilent, backing up 'CALRAM' is less
important, at this time at least.
My A5 board is 03458-66505 Rev C. I note that the Option 001 board is
03458-66515. Other than the installation of the four HM66256LP-12 chips,
which would appear to be about a $30 investment, is there any difference
between the boards? Does the firmware need to be changed to acknowledge the
presence of Option 001? Is there a way to tell if the chips are installed
using front panel controls? Using HPIB? I notice that there are two
'jumpers' in the vicinity, JM600 and JM132. Are these involved? On my
board, both jumpers connect the center pin and the pin to the left, as
viewed from the front, and as shown on the labeling on the board.
I also note that on my A5 board, there is a single ST M27C4002-12F1 chip,
soldered in place, instead of the six TM27C512's shown in the CLIP and the
ALRM. Unless there is a way to read the chip, installed, erase it,
installed, and reprogram it, installed, to upgrade the firmware to ver 9
would require the removal of the chip, installation of a socket, then
installing a new chip with the latest data programmed in. I don't know if
this is done or not. When I spoke with the folks at Agilent, I was given
the impression that part of the 'repair' was to upgrade everything to the
latest version by replacing the appropriate components rather than replacing
the various boards, citing the desire not to change the 'character' of the
meter by virtue of keeping all the 'aged' components possible.
Therefore, the question arises as to how practical is it to remove the three
Dallas chips (perhaps it is only one that needs to be archived) and the
single EPROM with a hot air rework station, install sockets, archive the
data, then reinstall the chips in the newly installed sockets? Is the board
just a dual level board or multiple layers? If I am going to send it back
to Agilent for their 'repair', would it be desirable to make the attempt
now?
Again, thanks to everyone on the list for their input and I look forward to
more input.
Joe
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
How did you do that? Solder wick and a soldering iron? That 'new' solder
that stays hot long enough to heat both sides, all pins, then 'lift' it out?
Hot air rework station?
Do you have the single EPROM or six?
Also, do you know if it is a multilayer board or not?
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Electronics and Books
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 5:53 AM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 3458A Questions - The Sequel
Best is to solder out the Dallas RAMs and the EPROM. You can then put
sockets in. The Dallas RAMs are readable as an eprom and on an eprom
programmer also writable. Desoldering and soldering new sockets took me an
hour. My firmware is marked 9017. Does anyone has a newer version on file.
Regards
info at ElectronicsAndBooks dot com http://ElectronicsAndBooks.com
From: J. L. Trantham jltran@att.net
To: volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 5:41 AM
Subject: [volt-nuts] 3458A Questions - The Sequel
Considering all the info this group supplied, I wound up with a new (to me)
3458A that was offered on theBay as a BIN or Best Offer. We negotiated back
and forth and I wound up with SN 2823A18533, no options, delivered for less
than $3800. Perhaps more than the $2500 suggested by other list members but
I am happy.
It has been on for about a month now and reads my two Fluke 731B's about 15
uV apart and it drifts up and down about 10 uV, P-P, at 10V, but with a
relatively stable 15 uV difference between the 731B's. It has ver 8.2
firmware and all the date codes on the chips along with the dates stamped on
the various covers and boards are all around Aug 1997. The bottom cover has
'Aug 20 1997' and the top cover has 'AUG 22 1997' stamped on. IIRC, Agilent
was born around 1999. Later, in the early 2000's, manufacturing was moved
from the US to Malaysia.
I talked to the folks at Agilent regarding 'new vs. a fine vintage' and they
suggested, similar to others on the list, that a 'fine vintage' at the right
price coupled with their 'Repair Per Incident' at $2363.56 would be the
preferred approach. They basically disassemble the unit, check everything,
including the 'crimps' on the cables, repair or replace whatever is needed,
test it 'to new standards', do a 'Gold Cal' (IIRC), and return it basically
as a 'new unit' including the option to purchase a 3 year extended warranty
on the meter.
The 'drift' issue of the reference is not tested for a non Option 002 unit
but when the next 'Gold Cal' is done, the drift would be provided as
compared to the first 'Gold Cal'.
List members suggested that I back up 'CALRAM' ASAP. I would agree. How do
I do it? The Dallas chips are soldered in place. By HPIB I presume? That
means that I am finally going to have to solve the 'HPIB issue'. Or is it
available from the front panel?
Of course, if I send it back to Agilent, backing up 'CALRAM' is less
important, at this time at least.
My A5 board is 03458-66505 Rev C. I note that the Option 001 board is
03458-66515. Other than the installation of the four HM66256LP-12 chips,
which would appear to be about a $30 investment, is there any difference
between the boards? Does the firmware need to be changed to acknowledge the
presence of Option 001? Is there a way to tell if the chips are installed
using front panel controls? Using HPIB? I notice that there are two
'jumpers' in the vicinity, JM600 and JM132. Are these involved? On my
board, both jumpers connect the center pin and the pin to the left, as
viewed from the front, and as shown on the labeling on the board.
I also note that on my A5 board, there is a single ST M27C4002-12F1 chip,
soldered in place, instead of the six TM27C512's shown in the CLIP and the
ALRM. Unless there is a way to read the chip, installed, erase it,
installed, and reprogram it, installed, to upgrade the firmware to ver 9
would require the removal of the chip, installation of a socket, then
installing a new chip with the latest data programmed in. I don't know if
this is done or not. When I spoke with the folks at Agilent, I was given
the impression that part of the 'repair' was to upgrade everything to the
latest version by replacing the appropriate components rather than replacing
the various boards, citing the desire not to change the 'character' of the
meter by virtue of keeping all the 'aged' components possible.
Therefore, the question arises as to how practical is it to remove the three
Dallas chips (perhaps it is only one that needs to be archived) and the
single EPROM with a hot air rework station, install sockets, archive the
data, then reinstall the chips in the newly installed sockets? Is the board
just a dual level board or multiple layers? If I am going to send it back
to Agilent for their 'repair', would it be desirable to make the attempt
now?
Again, thanks to everyone on the list for their input and I look forward to
more input.
Joe
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
In message 1319885566.66611.YahooMailNeo@web43137.mail.sp1.yahoo.com, Electro
nics and Books writes:
Best is to solder out the Dallas RAMs and the EPROM. You can then put sockets
in. The Dallas RAMs are readable as an eprom and on an eprom programmer
also writable. Desoldering and soldering new sockets took me an hour. My
firmware is marked 9017. Does anyone has a newer version on file.
Use the REV? command to see what version you have, the date contains no
information on its own.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
I think you are reading a date code on the chip. In order to read the
firmware, use the front panel controls.
The key sequence is 'Menu' (shift, E), 'R' (shift, Trig), scroll down (down
arrow) to 'REV?' then hit 'Enter'. Mine returns 8,2.
I looked at the picture of the boards on the Agilent website and the Option
001 version of the A5 board shows 6 EPROM's that appear to be in sockets
with 4 chips installed in U123 - U126, also appearing to be in sockets. The
non Option 001 A5 board shows the single EPROM, soldered in, but with empty
sockets at U123 - U126.
Therefore, another question arises. If I converted my EPROM, U110, and the
three Dallas chips, U121, U122, and U132, to socketed chips, and then sent
the board to Agilent for the 'repair', would Agilent replace the board
because they found it 'non original' or needed to upgrade the firmware or
upgrade the Dallas chips to more modern chips, etc., or would they instead
just replace the chips, leaving the sockets on the board? Anyone have any
experience sending a meter with a 'modified' board back to Agilent for
repair?
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Electronics and Books
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 5:53 AM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 3458A Questions - The Sequel
Best is to solder out the Dallas RAMs and the EPROM. You can then put
sockets in. The Dallas RAMs are readable as an eprom and on an eprom
programmer also writable. Desoldering and soldering new sockets took me an
hour. My firmware is marked 9017. Does anyone has a newer version on file.
Regards
info at ElectronicsAndBooks dot com http://ElectronicsAndBooks.com
In message E1456C1FE8F84D2296B979A3A0F1C614@S0028384766, "J. L. Trantham" wri
tes:
The key sequence is 'Menu' (shift, E), 'R' (shift, Trig), scroll down (down
arrow) to 'REV?' then hit 'Enter'. Mine returns 8,2.
That means you have software version 8 on the main processor and
rev 2 on the microcontroller on the analog side.
Highest I've heard about are 9 & 2.
I looked at the picture of the boards on the Agilent website and the Option
001 version of the A5 board shows 6 EPROM's that appear to be in sockets
with 4 chips installed in U123 - U126, also appearing to be in sockets. The
non Option 001 A5 board shows the single EPROM, soldered in, but with empty
sockets at U123 - U126. =
Opt 1 is just extra (volatile) RAM, a couple of standard RAM-chips will
do that for you, if you think you need it.
The six vs. one eprom is just that: one big instead of six smaller ones,
the functional change is the contents (typically rev8 vs rev9)
I don't know if rev9 can be put in 6 eproms, but I suspect it could,
if somebody sends me a dump (do it via HPIB) I'll be happy to find out.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Is there a way to tell if the Option 001 RAM is installed using only the
front panel controls?
What set up do you use to communicate via HPIB? I have several
possibilities that I can start playing with including PCI to HPIB boards, HP
and NI, with Win2K and XP, along with a USB to HPIB adapter. What program
do you use? I have downloaded the HP I/O Suites. I also have NI Labview.
I have not tried putting it all together yet. Any suggestions? Easiest
might be my XP laptop and the USB to HPIB adapter.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:36 AM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 3458A Questions - The Sequel
Opt 1 is just extra (volatile) RAM, a couple of standard RAM-chips will do
that for you, if you think you need it.
The six vs. one eprom is just that: one big instead of six smaller ones, the
functional change is the contents (typically rev8 vs rev9)
I don't know if rev9 can be put in 6 eproms, but I suspect it could, if
somebody sends me a dump (do it via HPIB) I'll be happy to find out.
In message FE0DBABCA7654BE1A518141B6774AD0C@S0028384766, "J. L. Trantham" wri
tes:
Is there a way to tell if the Option 001 RAM is installed using only the
front panel controls?
Yes, you can ask how much ram is available, can't remember the cmd
right now.
Opt1 only really helps you if you want to digitization of download
code to the meter.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Hi Joe,
Your noise and drift on your 731B is more than I see on my Datron 4910.
I have no experience with the 731B but my 4910 is very similar in
specifications to a 732B. My major drift with my 3458a measuring a 4910
cell is the room temperature. It is about 10 microvolt per degree C. My
peak to peak noise is dependent on NPLC settings up to 200 where it
becomes very usable with only a minor improvement at NPLC = 1000. NPLC
1000 is useful to get the ultimate accuracy on my system since it
integrates out some of the lowest frequency noise in the 4910. I use
shielded #24 cable with no connectors. The wire is tin plated Tefzel
STP but that seems to only cause 0 to 10 nv errors and reaches thermal
stability much faster than my otherwise identical #22 STP. I have
included two recent plots of one of my Datron 4910 Cells (it has four
cells which perform similarly) to illustrate NPLC settings. Notice the
downward drift in both plots that is caused by changes in room
temperature and the peak ti peak noise which I assume is 4910 noise. The
4910 noise spec is 0.04 PPM RMS and my cells are well within that.
I tried using connectors but only the gold plated spade lugs were af any
use to me. Most of my issues had to to do with thermal mass. To use
banana plugs I had to wait and wait. Dual gold plated banana plugs
(about 1mv thermal offset at first) never stabilize on my 3458A. I have
too many air currents I guess. Fortunately no connectors works perfectly
here and is the cheapest too.
Enjoy your new (to you) 3458A.
Charlie
On 10/28/2011 8:41 PM, J. L. Trantham wrote:
Considering all the info this group supplied, I wound up with a new (to me)
3458A that was offered on theBay as a BIN or Best Offer. We negotiated back
and forth and I wound up with SN 2823A18533, no options, delivered for less
than $3800. Perhaps more than the $2500 suggested by other list members but
I am happy.
It has been on for about a month now and reads my two Fluke 731B's about 15
uV apart and it drifts up and down about 10 uV, P-P, at 10V, but with a
relatively stable 15 uV difference between the 731B's. It has ver 8.2
firmware and all the date codes on the chips along with the dates stamped on
the various covers and boards are all around Aug 1997. The bottom cover has
'Aug 20 1997' and the top cover has 'AUG 22 1997' stamped on. IIRC, Agilent
was born around 1999. Later, in the early 2000's, manufacturing was moved
from the US to Malaysia.
I talked to the folks at Agilent regarding 'new vs. a fine vintage' and they
suggested, similar to others on the list, that a 'fine vintage' at the right
price coupled with their 'Repair Per Incident' at $2363.56 would be the
preferred approach. They basically disassemble the unit, check everything,
including the 'crimps' on the cables, repair or replace whatever is needed,
test it 'to new standards', do a 'Gold Cal' (IIRC), and return it basically
as a 'new unit' including the option to purchase a 3 year extended warranty
on the meter.
The 'drift' issue of the reference is not tested for a non Option 002 unit
but when the next 'Gold Cal' is done, the drift would be provided as
compared to the first 'Gold Cal'.
List members suggested that I back up 'CALRAM' ASAP. I would agree. How do
I do it? The Dallas chips are soldered in place. By HPIB I presume? That
means that I am finally going to have to solve the 'HPIB issue'. Or is it
available from the front panel?
Of course, if I send it back to Agilent, backing up 'CALRAM' is less
important, at this time at least.
My A5 board is 03458-66505 Rev C. I note that the Option 001 board is
03458-66515. Other than the installation of the four HM66256LP-12 chips,
which would appear to be about a $30 investment, is there any difference
between the boards? Does the firmware need to be changed to acknowledge the
presence of Option 001? Is there a way to tell if the chips are installed
using front panel controls? Using HPIB? I notice that there are two
'jumpers' in the vicinity, JM600 and JM132. Are these involved? On my
board, both jumpers connect the center pin and the pin to the left, as
viewed from the front, and as shown on the labeling on the board.
I also note that on my A5 board, there is a single ST M27C4002-12F1 chip,
soldered in place, instead of the six TM27C512's shown in the CLIP and the
ALRM. Unless there is a way to read the chip, installed, erase it,
installed, and reprogram it, installed, to upgrade the firmware to ver 9
would require the removal of the chip, installation of a socket, then
installing a new chip with the latest data programmed in. I don't know if
this is done or not. When I spoke with the folks at Agilent, I was given
the impression that part of the 'repair' was to upgrade everything to the
latest version by replacing the appropriate components rather than replacing
the various boards, citing the desire not to change the 'character' of the
meter by virtue of keeping all the 'aged' components possible.
Therefore, the question arises as to how practical is it to remove the three
Dallas chips (perhaps it is only one that needs to be archived) and the
single EPROM with a hot air rework station, install sockets, archive the
data, then reinstall the chips in the newly installed sockets? Is the board
just a dual level board or multiple layers? If I am going to send it back
to Agilent for their 'repair', would it be desirable to make the attempt
now?
Again, thanks to everyone on the list for their input and I look forward to
more input.
Joe
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
