Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Supply
Yes I am doing it with some very low cost switchers off ebay, followed by
linear regulators as I mentioned previously. Works great.
Bert Kehren
In a message dated 2/14/2011 11:51:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pete@petelancashire.com writes:
has anyone done a setup where the TB is running from a battery when
one is using its output. Something like you do
with pico amp meters, or I do with the Fluke 845AB null meter ?
-pete
On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Flemming Larsen oz6oi@yahoo.dk wrote:
I have a Power-One switching power supply that puts out +/- 15 Volts in
addition to +5 Volts. I was planning to add a pair of 7812/7912 voltage
regulators to provide the required +/- 12 Volts to the Thunderbolt.
I would welcome any suggestions to improvements in this very basic
design, including additional filtering, etc.
Please post or email.
BTW, has anyone considered using one of the many DC-to-DC PSUs that are
available for powering mobile PCs from +12 Volts? They appear to be ideal
for powering the Thunderbird from almost any DC power source, including a 12
Volt battery.
-- Flemming Larsen, OZ6OI/KB6ADS
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I think you should look at the specifications for the noise-rejection
capability of those three-terminal regulators. They are simple and
inexpensive but not particularly good at noise rejection. Some of the
noise from the switcher supply will pass through. Is it enough to cause
a real problem? Unknown to me as yet.
The power requirements of the Thunderbolt are not the usual ones you see
standard supplies designed to meet. I have yet to find a small linear
supply that is adequate that does not absolutely dwarf the Thunderbolt
itself!
Back in The Day, one could find a good assortment of multiple-secondary
power transformers that would allow us to build a simple linear supply
with the three-terminal regulators; there would no switcher to generate
noise. Alas, these transformers are no longer easily available today. I
think it can be done with two separate transformers but with the
filters, regulators and actual wiring, this adds up to a lot of work!
TAPR does offer a 13 vdc input, three-output power supply kit for their
software-defined radio kits, but its -12 vdc output comes from a
switching dc-dc inverter. That -12 vdc does supply the Thunderbolt OCXO
so I have some concern about noise on that power feed.
One could get a custom-designed PC board mount transformer and develop a
board to supply adequate power. I doubt there is enough interest or
purchase volume to justify this, however.
So, I'm still looking for a compact linear power supply. I welcome your
suggestions!
Larry W6FUB
On 2/14/2011 10:06 AM, EWKehren@aol.com wrote:
Yes I am doing it with some very low cost switchers off ebay, followed by
linear regulators as I mentioned previously. Works great.
Bert Kehren
...
--
Best wishes,
Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, CA (20 miles southeast of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
On 14/02/11 19:31, Larry McDavid wrote:
I think you should look at the specifications for the noise-rejection
capability of those three-terminal regulators. They are simple and
inexpensive but not particularly good at noise rejection. Some of the
noise from the switcher supply will pass through. Is it enough to cause
a real problem? Unknown to me as yet.
I think the linear regulator is mainly to handle low frequency damping
where as for higher frequencies capacitors and inductors is helpful.
They do not exclude themselves, but they may be a cheap and fairly
effective in combination.
Cheers,
Magnus
Hi
Ok, since this keeps coming up, here's the full blow by blow of everything
you need to do. Nothing left to the imagination :)
You have a switcher running into a filter running. The filter feeds into
three terminal regulators. The regulators are running into the TBolt. Power
to the switcher is from the wall or in some cases from a battery.
First issue is inductors for the filter and why you don't want to just use
inductors.
Finding an inductor that will handle a couple of amps, and have enough
inductance to be useful down to 30 Hz is a tough proposition. They are going
to be big, heavy, and expensive.
A three terminal regulator, properly chosen, will do a great job down at
audio. Your switcher takes in 60 Hz, it's got 60 Hz ripple on it's output.
You need to get rid of it. No they don't work to hundreds of MHz, but with
care you can find ones that do well over the audio range.
Next step is the first part of the filter. It needs to take over where your
particular three terminal regulator starts to have issues. That could be
lower or higher depending on what you use.
Finding inductors that will work from a few tens of KHz to a MHz while
moving over an amp - much easier than at 30 Hz. The switcher market has us
flooded with cheap (like 10 for a dollar) little parts that do that. Three
caps, two coils = nice filter. If size is not a big issue, getting low DC
drop as well as some inductance is quite doable.
Next stop above that - something designed for RF. Might or might not have a
chunk of ferrite / powdered iron for a core. If you wind your own, very low
cost (maybe a nickel). Likely a double L section, two caps, two coils.
With all the coils, you need to look carefully at saturation. A coil that's
rated for an amp, but that drops to 10% of it's inductance while doing it is
not what you want.
That gets you half of the filter. You need to do the same rock and roll with
the capacitors. The stuff that works at 10 KHz likely isn't going to do much
good at a 200 MHz. Even if they all are ceramics, your dielectrics likely
will change between the sections.
The net result is a gizmo that's quiet, small, and low dropout. None of the
coils will drop much voltage at all. The LDO will be in the sub 1 volt
range. If it drops by a volt with the OCXO full on, it should drop back to
0.1 V after warm up. Works fine.
Hopefully that clears things up.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Larry McDavid
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 1:32 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: EWKehren@aol.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Supply
I think you should look at the specifications for the noise-rejection
capability of those three-terminal regulators. They are simple and
inexpensive but not particularly good at noise rejection. Some of the
noise from the switcher supply will pass through. Is it enough to cause
a real problem? Unknown to me as yet.
The power requirements of the Thunderbolt are not the usual ones you see
standard supplies designed to meet. I have yet to find a small linear
supply that is adequate that does not absolutely dwarf the Thunderbolt
itself!
Back in The Day, one could find a good assortment of multiple-secondary
power transformers that would allow us to build a simple linear supply
with the three-terminal regulators; there would no switcher to generate
noise. Alas, these transformers are no longer easily available today. I
think it can be done with two separate transformers but with the
filters, regulators and actual wiring, this adds up to a lot of work!
TAPR does offer a 13 vdc input, three-output power supply kit for their
software-defined radio kits, but its -12 vdc output comes from a
switching dc-dc inverter. That -12 vdc does supply the Thunderbolt OCXO
so I have some concern about noise on that power feed.
One could get a custom-designed PC board mount transformer and develop a
board to supply adequate power. I doubt there is enough interest or
purchase volume to justify this, however.
So, I'm still looking for a compact linear power supply. I welcome your
suggestions!
Larry W6FUB
On 2/14/2011 10:06 AM, EWKehren@aol.com wrote:
Yes I am doing it with some very low cost switchers off ebay, followed by
linear regulators as I mentioned previously. Works great.
Bert Kehren
...
--
Best wishes,
Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, CA (20 miles southeast of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
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Bob wrote:
A three terminal regulator, properly chosen, will do a great job down at
audio.
Depends on what you mean by "great job." All of the 3T regulators
I'm familiar with have at least two orders of magnitude more noise
than a well-designed LN analog regulator -- many have much more
(especially LDO parts). At the low impedance levels involved, it's
challenging to filter it out.
Finding inductors that will work from a few tens of KHz to a MHz while
moving over an amp - much easier than at 30 Hz. * * *
Next stop above that - something designed for RF. * * *
The net result is a gizmo that's quiet, small, and low dropout.
In both of these ranges, the high current switching transients of the
switcher tend to get into everything, including "grounds." There are
resistive drops ("ground loops") plus inductive and capacitive
coupling (every wire/trace is an antenna). It takes great care with
layout and design to reduce these even to a dull roar, and
extraordinary measures to clean up a switcher for precision analog
work between DC and several MHz.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is a lot of work and you have
to know exactly what you are doing in an environment where it is very
hard to measure what you are trying to eliminate. It almost always
involves shielding each module separately, using feedthrough
capacitors from module to module, etc. Most of this can be avoided
by using only analog regulators.
Best regards,
Charles
Hi
If all you are doing is running a Thunderbolt, you don't need a supply
that's more quiet than most batteries. People get reasonable performance off
of straight switcher outputs. Adding simple linear + filtering gets you well
into the overkill region on this application. The idea is to stop spending
money when you have reached the "good enough" point.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Charles P. Steinmetz
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 4:21 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Supply
Bob wrote:
A three terminal regulator, properly chosen, will do a great job down at
audio.
Depends on what you mean by "great job." All of the 3T regulators
I'm familiar with have at least two orders of magnitude more noise
than a well-designed LN analog regulator -- many have much more
(especially LDO parts). At the low impedance levels involved, it's
challenging to filter it out.
Finding inductors that will work from a few tens of KHz to a MHz while
moving over an amp - much easier than at 30 Hz. * * *
Next stop above that - something designed for RF. * * *
The net result is a gizmo that's quiet, small, and low dropout.
In both of these ranges, the high current switching transients of the
switcher tend to get into everything, including "grounds." There are
resistive drops ("ground loops") plus inductive and capacitive
coupling (every wire/trace is an antenna). It takes great care with
layout and design to reduce these even to a dull roar, and
extraordinary measures to clean up a switcher for precision analog
work between DC and several MHz.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is a lot of work and you have
to know exactly what you are doing in an environment where it is very
hard to measure what you are trying to eliminate. It almost always
involves shielding each module separately, using feedthrough
capacitors from module to module, etc. Most of this can be avoided
by using only analog regulators.
Best regards,
Charles
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Greetings and my first post from a down-under lurker.
A reasonably simple way of producing a clean supply would be the "finesse" regulator here
http://www.wenzel.com/documents/finesse.html
I'm not sure how well would clean up the spikey stuff from a switcher though.
--
Cheers, Ken
vk7krj@users.tasmanet.com.au
www.vk7krj.com
'It seems hard to sneak a look at God's cards. But that He plays dice and uses
"telepathic" methods .... is something that I cannot believe for a single
moment.' (Einstein's famous quote on Quantum theory)
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Bob wrote:
If all you are doing is running a Thunderbolt, you don't need a
supply that's more quiet than most batteries.
Most batteries are very quiet -- it takes heroic measures to get
any actively regulated supply into that ballpark. Indeed, one
might be tempted to run a Tbolt off of three batteries, each one
charged by a low-noise, high-impedance current source that puts out
about .05 CV more than the Tbolt draws. One could even turn the
charging off for short periods of "minimal noise" operation, if the
batteries were suitably sized. However, in either case I would be
concerned that the drift of one or more of the battery voltages (poor
absolute regulation) might introduce another source of XO drift --
but I have not tried it.
The idea is to stop spending money when you have reached the "good
enough" point.
I quite agree with you on this point (maybe I'd say "when you are
clearly past the point where other errors dominate the performance
envelope"). However:
People get reasonable performance off of straight switcher outputs.
Adding simple linear + filtering gets you well into the overkill
region on this application.
I'm not sure we know for certain how quiet is "good enough" for a
Tbolt, or where the "overkill region" is -- particularly when the
residual noise contains impulse hash from a switching regulator. I
presume most time nuts would consider a 5 dB improvement in phase
noise worthwhile for the relatively low cost/effort of using a good
linear supply, if that level of improvement can be attained. The
only systematic study I've seen is what tvb has on his web site, and
it does not include data from a switching supply with external
post-regulation and/or post-filtering.
Best regards,
Charles
On 02/15/2011 04:18 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:
Bob wrote:
If all you are doing is running a Thunderbolt, you don't need a supply
that's more quiet than most batteries.
Most batteries are very quiet -- it takes heroic measures to get any
actively regulated supply into that ballpark. Indeed, one might be
tempted to run a Tbolt off of three batteries, each one charged by a
low-noise, high-impedance current source that puts out about .05 CV more
than the Tbolt draws. One could even turn the charging off for short
periods of "minimal noise" operation, if the batteries were suitably
sized. However, in either case I would be concerned that the drift of
one or more of the battery voltages (poor absolute regulation) might
introduce another source of XO drift -- but I have not tried it.
This has gone overboard. The T-bolt generates digital noise all by
itself. It's the OCXO which would benefit most from a clean supply and
isolation from the rest of the T-bolt except that temp-sensor.
Providing ultra-clean supplies to the digital logic would be overkill,
as it would mess it up itself anyway.
Cheers,
Magnus
On Tue, 2011-02-15 at 10:47 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote:
This has gone overboard. The T-bolt generates digital noise all by
itself. It's the OCXO which would benefit most from a clean supply and
isolation from the rest of the T-bolt except that temp-sensor.
Considering the T-bolt has 3 supplies which rail is the one that is most
important to keep clean
My main interest is the best possible phase noise and spur performance
as the 10MHz output is feeding a high quality SDR
Providing ultra-clean supplies to the digital logic would be overkill,
as it would mess it up itself anyway.
I guess what I am wondering, considering I already have a very low
noise, stable, battery backed 12V (13.8V really) system in the shack can
I use that along with a small dual rail DC-DC converter and still get
very good performance
--
73
Brendan EI6IZ
Hi
The same board with all the logic crud on it has the 10 MHz signal amps on it. Same supply / same ground for it all. There very much is a practical limit here.
Bob
On Feb 15, 2011, at 4:47 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
On 02/15/2011 04:18 AM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:
Bob wrote:
If all you are doing is running a Thunderbolt, you don't need a supply
that's more quiet than most batteries.
Most batteries are very quiet -- it takes heroic measures to get any
actively regulated supply into that ballpark. Indeed, one might be
tempted to run a Tbolt off of three batteries, each one charged by a
low-noise, high-impedance current source that puts out about .05 CV more
than the Tbolt draws. One could even turn the charging off for short
periods of "minimal noise" operation, if the batteries were suitably
sized. However, in either case I would be concerned that the drift of
one or more of the battery voltages (poor absolute regulation) might
introduce another source of XO drift -- but I have not tried it.
This has gone overboard. The T-bolt generates digital noise all by itself. It's the OCXO which would benefit most from a clean supply and isolation from the rest of the T-bolt except that temp-sensor.
Providing ultra-clean supplies to the digital logic would be overkill, as it would mess it up itself anyway.
Cheers,
Magnus
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The +12 volts is what you want to keep stable. You would like to keep them all reasonably clean. That's not to hard for -12 since there's next to no current on it. +5 is mostly digital logic, it generates it's own suprs and noise. +12 runs the OCXO and it's internal regulators, it's likely all analog.
The issue here isn't as much ultra clean as stable. A well regulated supply on the +12 will give you better performance out of the TBolt. The OCXO does indeed change frequency when the +12 changes. I posted some data a while back.
Bob
On Feb 15, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Brendan Minish wrote:
On Tue, 2011-02-15 at 10:47 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote:
This has gone overboard. The T-bolt generates digital noise all by
itself. It's the OCXO which would benefit most from a clean supply and
isolation from the rest of the T-bolt except that temp-sensor.
Considering the T-bolt has 3 supplies which rail is the one that is most
important to keep clean
My main interest is the best possible phase noise and spur performance
as the 10MHz output is feeding a high quality SDR
Providing ultra-clean supplies to the digital logic would be overkill,
as it would mess it up itself anyway.
I guess what I am wondering, considering I already have a very low
noise, stable, battery backed 12V (13.8V really) system in the shack can
I use that along with a small dual rail DC-DC converter and still get
very good performance
--
73
Brendan EI6IZ
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Content preview: On Feb 15, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Brendan Minish wrote: > I guess
what I am wondering, considering I already have a very low > noise, stable,
battery backed 12V (13.8V really) system in the shack can > I use that along
with a small dual rail DC-DC converter and still get > very good performance
[...]
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On Tue, February 15, 2011 7:40 am, Brendan Minish wrote:
I guess what I am wondering, considering I already have a very low
noise, stable, battery backed 12V (13.8V really) system in the shack can
I use that along with a small dual rail DC-DC converter and still get
very good performance
I use one of these
http://www.cd4power.com/data/power/twr20wa-series.pdf, but I
have no idea how noisy it really is. For the moment it meets my needs,
even if it is
a little pricey.
Ralph
Hi
The only way I have found to really take care of the spam trigger issue is
to put in a rule that triggers based on it being a mailing list. If you
subscribe to a lot of lists, that can be a pain.
There is also a school of thought that bouncing spam is no longer a good
idea. Lots of long drawn out arguments on both sides of that question.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Ralph Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 10:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Supply
It seems my mail server was a little overzealous in declaring a message
spam, for which I apologize, and will try a resend.
On Tue, February 15, 2011 7:40 am, Brendan Minish wrote:
I guess what I am wondering, considering I already have a very low
noise, stable, battery backed 12V (13.8V really) system in the shack can
I use that along with a small dual rail DC-DC converter and still get
very good performance
I use one of these
http://www.cd4power.com/data/power/twr20wa-series.pdf, but I
have no idea how noisy it really is. For the moment it meets my needs,
even if it is
a little pricey.
Ralph
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Hello The Net:
When I retired almost 2 decades ago, I put my wristwatch in a drawer and
left it there.
I was hoping to never have to use it again.
Wishful thinking.
Now I need it, but it does not work, battery is depleted.
I need to open it up and replace the battery.
Any idea how I get my Oysterquartz open. It does have a back cover,
but is it a right handed or a left handed thread, and where can I find
the best tool,
without marring it ?
Also, any idea what the battery part number is ?
I should consider replacing the o-ring seal under the cover, any idea
where to get one ?
After I replace the battery, I hope to calibrate it, comparing it to my
Trimble GPS/DO.
Any help is appreciated.
I had considered getting support from R-USA in NY, but previous support
was horribly bad.
Stan, W1LE Cape Cod FN41sr
ZZZZz
Hi Stan...
I was able to find a local jewelry store that had a watch repair shop with
the tools, skills and knowledge needed to rebuild my Seiko a few months
back, and at a reasonable cost. Maybe that would work out for you too.
Tom Holmes, N8ZM
Tipp City, OH
EM79
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Stan, W1LE
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 2:44 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Tool Needed to Access my Timer Battery
Hello The Net:
When I retired almost 2 decades ago, I put my wristwatch in a drawer and
left it there.
I was hoping to never have to use it again.
Wishful thinking.
Now I need it, but it does not work, battery is depleted.
I need to open it up and replace the battery.
Any idea how I get my Oysterquartz open. It does have a back cover,
but is it a right handed or a left handed thread, and where can I find
the best tool,
without marring it ?
Also, any idea what the battery part number is ?
I should consider replacing the o-ring seal under the cover, any idea
where to get one ?
After I replace the battery, I hope to calibrate it, comparing it to my
Trimble GPS/DO.
Any help is appreciated.
I had considered getting support from R-USA in NY, but previous support
was horribly bad.
Stan, W1LE Cape Cod FN41sr
ZZZZz
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
There are case tools available, but unless you're going to be fiddling
with the watch regularly (or just want more tools), it may be best to
find a reputable local jeweler or watch specialist to do the work.
timezone.com has active forums of "watch-nuts", and you may be able to
find a recommendation for a local shop there.
An alternative would be to contact Rolex in Switzerland directly.
If you are truly interested in having the watch run well and it has been
sitting that long with no maintenance, it should probably have a visit
to the factory for refurbishment.
-Pete
On 02/15/2011 11:43 AM, Stan, W1LE wrote:
Hello The Net:
When I retired almost 2 decades ago, I put my wristwatch in a drawer
and left it there.
I was hoping to never have to use it again.
Wishful thinking.
Now I need it, but it does not work, battery is depleted.
I need to open it up and replace the battery.
Any idea how I get my Oysterquartz open. It does have a back cover,
but is it a right handed or a left handed thread, and where can I find
the best tool,
without marring it ?
Also, any idea what the battery part number is ?
I should consider replacing the o-ring seal under the cover, any idea
where to get one ?
After I replace the battery, I hope to calibrate it, comparing it to
my Trimble GPS/DO.
Any help is appreciated.
I had considered getting support from R-USA in NY, but previous
support was horribly bad.
Stan, W1LE Cape Cod FN41sr
ZZZZz
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and follow the instructions there.
Almost any place that sells quality watches will replace the battery
for you for about the price of the battery. It takes about 5 minutes
and they will have the tools and battery You should get most of your
$10 bill back as change
Typically there are two types of rear covers some are threaded and
others use a snap/friction fit.
Battery and o-rings are not designed special for each model of watch
and are standard parts
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Hi
There is one sneaky little gotcha in replacing a watch battery.
On a good watch, they replace the O-ring when they replace the battery. They
also make sure the inside of the case is nice and dry before they seal it.
Omit either step and your watch face is likely to fog when it gets cold. I
suspect the moisture does not do the mechanism much good either.
Depending on where you live that may or may not be an issue. Here in the
cold part of the country, it is a real concern for a watch worn outdoors.
The solution often is to send the watch in for a battery swap. Cost is not
much, but it's gone for a while.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Peter Loron
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 2:52 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tool Needed to Access my Timer Battery
There are case tools available, but unless you're going to be fiddling
with the watch regularly (or just want more tools), it may be best to
find a reputable local jeweler or watch specialist to do the work.
timezone.com has active forums of "watch-nuts", and you may be able to
find a recommendation for a local shop there.
An alternative would be to contact Rolex in Switzerland directly.
If you are truly interested in having the watch run well and it has been
sitting that long with no maintenance, it should probably have a visit
to the factory for refurbishment.
-Pete
On 02/15/2011 11:43 AM, Stan, W1LE wrote:
Hello The Net:
When I retired almost 2 decades ago, I put my wristwatch in a drawer
and left it there.
I was hoping to never have to use it again.
Wishful thinking.
Now I need it, but it does not work, battery is depleted.
I need to open it up and replace the battery.
Any idea how I get my Oysterquartz open. It does have a back cover,
but is it a right handed or a left handed thread, and where can I find
the best tool,
without marring it ?
Also, any idea what the battery part number is ?
I should consider replacing the o-ring seal under the cover, any idea
where to get one ?
After I replace the battery, I hope to calibrate it, comparing it to
my Trimble GPS/DO.
Any help is appreciated.
I had considered getting support from R-USA in NY, but previous
support was horribly bad.
Stan, W1LE Cape Cod FN41sr
ZZZZz
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I strongly urge you to send it back to Rolex. They will take the movement
out of the case, clean it, test it, replace all the gaskets and
seals, install a new battery, and even buff the case and bracelet for you.
I have a couple of Omegas (mechanicals) and about every 5 years I send them
to Switzerland and they do the above. Rolex does, as well.
The price is reasonable and the service is superb, if not real quick.
Only to the home plant though, not to the US service centers.
Bill
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
There is one sneaky little gotcha in replacing a watch battery.
On a good watch, they replace the O-ring when they replace the battery.
They
also make sure the inside of the case is nice and dry before they seal it.
Omit either step and your watch face is likely to fog when it gets cold. I
suspect the moisture does not do the mechanism much good either.
Depending on where you live that may or may not be an issue. Here in the
cold part of the country, it is a real concern for a watch worn outdoors.
The solution often is to send the watch in for a battery swap. Cost is not
much, but it's gone for a while.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Peter Loron
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 2:52 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tool Needed to Access my Timer Battery
There are case tools available, but unless you're going to be fiddling
with the watch regularly (or just want more tools), it may be best to
find a reputable local jeweler or watch specialist to do the work.
timezone.com has active forums of "watch-nuts", and you may be able to
find a recommendation for a local shop there.
An alternative would be to contact Rolex in Switzerland directly.
If you are truly interested in having the watch run well and it has been
sitting that long with no maintenance, it should probably have a visit
to the factory for refurbishment.
-Pete
On 02/15/2011 11:43 AM, Stan, W1LE wrote:
Hello The Net:
When I retired almost 2 decades ago, I put my wristwatch in a drawer
and left it there.
I was hoping to never have to use it again.
Wishful thinking.
Now I need it, but it does not work, battery is depleted.
I need to open it up and replace the battery.
Any idea how I get my Oysterquartz open. It does have a back cover,
but is it a right handed or a left handed thread, and where can I find
the best tool,
without marring it ?
Also, any idea what the battery part number is ?
I should consider replacing the o-ring seal under the cover, any idea
where to get one ?
After I replace the battery, I hope to calibrate it, comparing it to
my Trimble GPS/DO.
Any help is appreciated.
I had considered getting support from R-USA in NY, but previous
support was horribly bad.
Stan, W1LE Cape Cod FN41sr
ZZZZz
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Rolex... that makes an easy job hard.
Rolex typically uses a very strange formed wrench to screw off the
back.... right hand thread, by the way... where every other high
quality watch uses a simple case spanner wrench with 6 tangs, Rolex
Oyster's have 6 wiggly shaped forms that they repeat to make the border
around the watch back. This is done mostly to disguise the fact that
the back comes off. The down side is if you use anything but the real
Rolex case wrench, you will be virtually assured of scarring the back...
And Rolex won't sell tools, or parts, to anyone that hasn't gone to,
and passed Rolex's factory school.
I have a Vigor No. 6 case back wrench that has a set of tips that supposedly
will open Rolex Oyster cases, but I would never risk it on such an expensive
watch. It doesn't provide the level of engagement that the real Rolex wrench
does, and I am afraid it would slip.
There is, however, a workaround that frequently does the trick. Oftentimes,
you can remove the back by using friction. With a chunk of Rodico (a kneed-able
eraser like material), stuck to the back, and pressing hard and twisting, you
can usually get the back off... others use a new rubber crutch tip.
As to the O-rings, as long as they were properly lubricated, they can be
reused a dozen or more times without a problem... However, without doing
a leak test, you are relying on your luck.
If you go to Rolex to get the job done, they will make sure that you pay
for the effects of the sluggish economy on their bottom line.
Or, you could sell your watch on ebay, and buy several dozen timex watches.
-Chuck Harris
Stan, W1LE wrote:
Hello The Net:
When I retired almost 2 decades ago, I put my wristwatch in a drawer and
left it there.
I was hoping to never have to use it again.
Wishful thinking.
Now I need it, but it does not work, battery is depleted.
I need to open it up and replace the battery.
Any idea how I get my Oysterquartz open. It does have a back cover,
but is it a right handed or a left handed thread, and where can I find
the best tool,
without marring it ?
Also, any idea what the battery part number is ?
I should consider replacing the o-ring seal under the cover, any idea
where to get one ?
After I replace the battery, I hope to calibrate it, comparing it to my
Trimble GPS/DO.
Any help is appreciated.
I had considered getting support from R-USA in NY, but previous support
was horribly bad.
Stan, W1LE Cape Cod FN41sr
ZZZZz
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I defer to your expertise, Chuck. I will just note that when Omega
overhauls a mechanical they reset the warranty.
And it isn't that expensive, especially considering the initial
investment.
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Chuck Harris cfharris@erols.com wrote:
Rolex... that makes an easy job hard.
Rolex typically uses a very strange formed wrench to screw off the
back.... right hand thread, by the way... where every other high
quality watch uses a simple case spanner wrench with 6 tangs, Rolex
Oyster's have 6 wiggly shaped forms that they repeat to make the border
around the watch back. This is done mostly to disguise the fact that
the back comes off. The down side is if you use anything but the real
Rolex case wrench, you will be virtually assured of scarring the back...
And Rolex won't sell tools, or parts, to anyone that hasn't gone to,
and passed Rolex's factory school.
I have a Vigor No. 6 case back wrench that has a set of tips that
supposedly
will open Rolex Oyster cases, but I would never risk it on such an
expensive
watch. It doesn't provide the level of engagement that the real Rolex
wrench
does, and I am afraid it would slip.
There is, however, a workaround that frequently does the trick.
Oftentimes,
you can remove the back by using friction. With a chunk of Rodico (a
kneed-able
eraser like material), stuck to the back, and pressing hard and twisting,
you
can usually get the back off... others use a new rubber crutch tip.
As to the O-rings, as long as they were properly lubricated, they can be
reused a dozen or more times without a problem... However, without doing
a leak test, you are relying on your luck.
If you go to Rolex to get the job done, they will make sure that you pay
for the effects of the sluggish economy on their bottom line.
Or, you could sell your watch on ebay, and buy several dozen timex watches.
-Chuck Harris
Stan, W1LE wrote:
Hello The Net:
When I retired almost 2 decades ago, I put my wristwatch in a drawer and
left it there.
I was hoping to never have to use it again.
Wishful thinking.
Now I need it, but it does not work, battery is depleted.
I need to open it up and replace the battery.
Any idea how I get my Oysterquartz open. It does have a back cover,
but is it a right handed or a left handed thread, and where can I find
the best tool,
without marring it ?
Also, any idea what the battery part number is ?
I should consider replacing the o-ring seal under the cover, any idea
where to get one ?
After I replace the battery, I hope to calibrate it, comparing it to my
Trimble GPS/DO.
Any help is appreciated.
I had considered getting support from R-USA in NY, but previous support
was horribly bad.
Stan, W1LE Cape Cod FN41sr
ZZZZz
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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and follow the instructions there.
Reasonable is a matter of opinion. Rolex charges more than $500 for
servicing one of their Oyster Perpetuals. The Oysterquartz is a much
simpler watch.. (being all electronic), and should be less, but I'd
bet it isn't.
Also, be very sure that your watch is really a Rolex, with a real Rolex
movement, and that you really own it. If it is a fake, you will never
see it again. Likewise if it was ever stolen in the past. If some
earlier watchmaker stole your Rolex movement, and substituted an ebauche
movement (they do that all the time), you will be charged for a service,
and a new Rolex movement.
-Chuck Harris
William H. Fite wrote:
The price is reasonable and the service is superb, if not real quick.
Only to the home plant though, not to the US service centers.
Bill
After I wrote "just take it to any quality watch retailer" I got to
thinking,.... Wow someone actually still uses a wrist watch? If you
look around almost no one does because all of our electronic gadgets,
cell phones and the like all have LCD screens that display the time.
A watch is redundant except as a kind of reto-fashion statement.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
On 02/16/2011 12:25 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
After I wrote "just take it to any quality watch retailer" I got to
thinking,.... Wow someone actually still uses a wrist watch? If you
look around almost no one does because all of our electronic gadgets,
cell phones and the like all have LCD screens that display the time.
A watch is redundant except as a kind of reto-fashion statement.
Besides this thread being fairly off-topic... I strongly consider
bringing my pocket watch into operational mode again.
Cheers,
Magnus
I recently inherited my father's 40-year-old Omega Constellation watch. This watch probably hasn't been used in 15 years or more.
I was going to take it to a reputable watch repair shop (Geneva Watch Repair in San Francisco} but have put it off due to the expected cost.
What exactly is "not that expensive" if I wanted to send it back to Omega in Switzerland and what is the procedure?
Thanks,
-- Flemming Larsen OZ6OI/KB6ADS Berkeley, CA, USA
--- Den tirs 15/2/11 skrev William H. Fite omniryx@gmail.com:
Fra: William H. Fite omniryx@gmail.com
I defer to your expertise,
Chuck. I will just note that when Omega
overhauls a mechanical they reset the warranty.
And it isn't that expensive, especially considering the
initial
investment.
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Flemming Larsen oz6oi@yahoo.dk wrote:
What exactly is "not that expensive" if I wanted to send it back to Omega in Switzerland and what is the procedure?
Short answer: "about $400" but it comes back like new and with a warranty.
Longer answer: Note that CHF and USD are about 1:1 even, then look here
http://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/watch-repair/repair-prices
My parents were in Switzerland and found you can get MUCH better
prices if you are actually there and know a "local" who can point out
the best deals.
How can watches be OT on a time-nuts list? Yes the technology of
today is electronic but mechanical time keeping was the center of this
art for centuries.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Wrist watches are very useful when you don't have pockets. They
are also more convenient when you want to know the time without having
to fish around in your pockets with a free (or dirty) hand.
If I'm going to use a pocket watch, I'll use one of my nice antique
railroad watches.
-Chuck Harris
Chris Albertson wrote:
After I wrote "just take it to any quality watch retailer" I got to
thinking,.... Wow someone actually still uses a wrist watch? If you
look around almost no one does because all of our electronic gadgets,
cell phones and the like all have LCD screens that display the time.
A watch is redundant except as a kind of reto-fashion statement.
Magnus Danielson wrote:
On 02/16/2011 12:25 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
After I wrote "just take it to any quality watch retailer" I got to
thinking,.... Wow someone actually still uses a wrist watch? If you
look around almost no one does because all of our electronic gadgets,
cell phones and the like all have LCD screens that display the time.
A watch is redundant except as a kind of reto-fashion statement.
Besides this thread being fairly off-topic... I strongly consider
bringing my pocket watch into operational mode again.
Yeah, that's true, what ever do watches have to do with time?
-Chuck Harris
It takes about 3 hours to take a watch down to its bits, clean it, reassemble,
and lubricate everything, and then do a preliminary adjustment.
Whatever you earn for 3-4 hours of your time would probably be a reasonable price
as long as no parts are required.
If you are paying less than that amount, you are probably being given a gift, or
more likely they are doing a swish job, which isn't worth paying for.
-Chuck Harris
Flemming Larsen wrote:
I recently inherited my father's 40-year-old Omega Constellation watch. This watch probably hasn't been used in 15
years or more.
I was going to take it to a reputable watch repair shop (Geneva Watch Repair in San Francisco} but have put it off
due to the expected cost.
What exactly is "not that expensive" if I wanted to send it back to Omega in Switzerland and what is the procedure?
Thanks,
-- Flemming Larsen OZ6OI/KB6ADS Berkeley, CA, USA
Magnus, seriously... how can a watch be off-topic? I have a nice collection
of both pocket and wrist watches. Some are more accurate than my cell phone
which I don't trust at all (it messed up due to a time-zone change while
driving last weekend).
A watch IS the measurement of time. We just all strive to make/build a
better one.
- heathkid
----- Original Message -----
From: "Magnus Danielson" magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tool Needed to Access my Timer Battery
Besides this thread being fairly off-topic... I strongly consider bringing
my pocket watch into operational mode again.
Cheers,
Magnus
On Feb 15, 2011, at 2:53 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
Almost any place that sells quality watches will replace the battery
for you for about the price of the battery....You should get most of
your
$10 bill back as change
Chris,
Maybe follow on messages to the list have clarified a bit: the watch
in question is a Rolex. It last sold for $3000 in all-stainless
case. The thing should go to a Rolex dealer or at least a repair
person experienced in Rolex watches.
Roy
Roy Morgan
k1lky@earthlink.net
K1LKY Since 1958 - Keep 'em Glowing!
Le 16/02/2011 00:57, Chris Albertson a écrit :
How can watches be OT on a time-nuts list? Yes the technology of
today is electronic but mechanical time keeping was the center of this
art for centuries.
I agree , with the caveat that posts keep to technical topics. There
are plenty of product centric lists covering the bling side.
This has gone overboard.
As a sailor I'm careful about using that phrase.
Thanks for all the suggestions and information. I;m now back to my original plan to use the Power-One +5V and +/- 15V switching power supply, followed by a pair of 7812/7912 voltage regulators for the + and - 12V. The power supply and Thunderbolt will be mounted in separate enclosures connected with a short(12") cable. I will add ferrite beads on both ends of the wires where they exit and enter the two enclosures, paralleled with 0.1 uF capacitors to ground. The 12 volt regulators will be filtered with 2200uF electrolytic capacitors on each input and 10uF on each output. The 7812/7912 regulators will be mounted on heatsinks mounted on spacers on the back of the enclosure.
I am not sure what to do, if anything, to the +5 volt other than adding an inductor of the power-line filter variety in series. If I can find some feed-through capacitors of the threaded variety, I may add them to the back of the Thunderbolt enclosure to replace the original connector.
All of this will be mounted on the back of a 1U rack panel.
Now, if I could find the correct HP paint code ...
-- Flemming Larsen OZ6OI/KB6ADS Berkeley, CA, USA
BLING?
Really? Seriously? A "watch" is considered "bling" now? Can you build a
mechanical watch in your workshop that is as accurate as those manufactured
100 years ago? That's technology! Otherwise, a precision watch....
mechanical or electronic is just as on-topic as a Cs standard and I'd like
to hear more about mechanical watches. Btw, the "tick" sounds nice too!
----- Original Message -----
From: "cook michael" michael.cook@sfr.fr
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tool Needed to Access my Timer Battery
Le 16/02/2011 00:57, Chris Albertson a écrit :
How can watches be OT on a time-nuts list? Yes the technology of
today is electronic but mechanical time keeping was the center of this
art for centuries.
I agree , with the caveat that posts keep to technical topics. There
are plenty of product centric lists covering the bling side.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Le 16/02/2011 07:21, Heathkid a écrit :
BLING?
Really? Seriously? A "watch" is considered "bling" now? Can you
build a mechanical watch in your workshop that is as accurate as those
manufactured 100 years ago? That's technology! Otherwise, a
precision watch.... mechanical or electronic is just as on-topic as a
Cs standard and I'd like to hear more about mechanical watches. Btw,
the "tick" sounds nice too!
You appear to have misunderstood my comment. I entirely agree with you.
When I mentioned "bling" I was talking about the fashion content.
----- Original Message ----- From: "cook michael" michael.cook@sfr.fr
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tool Needed to Access my Timer Battery
Le 16/02/2011 00:57, Chris Albertson a écrit :
How can watches be OT on a time-nuts list? Yes the technology of
today is electronic but mechanical time keeping was the center of this
art for centuries.
I agree , with the caveat that posts keep to technical topics. There
are plenty of product centric lists covering the bling side.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi
I would add a couple of surplus switcher coils to the setup and some good caps. The switcher likely puts out 60 KHz and that's what you want to kill. Something in the X.X mhy range and some reasonable caps (ceramic or very good plastic) should do the job.
Bob
On Feb 16, 2011, at 1:19 AM, Flemming Larsen wrote:
This has gone overboard.
As a sailor I'm careful about using that phrase.
Thanks for all the suggestions and information. I;m now back to my original plan to use the Power-One +5V and +/- 15V switching power supply, followed by a pair of 7812/7912 voltage regulators for the + and - 12V. The power supply and Thunderbolt will be mounted in separate enclosures connected with a short(12") cable. I will add ferrite beads on both ends of the wires where they exit and enter the two enclosures, paralleled with 0.1 uF capacitors to ground. The 12 volt regulators will be filtered with 2200uF electrolytic capacitors on each input and 10uF on each output. The 7812/7912 regulators will be mounted on heatsinks mounted on spacers on the back of the enclosure.
I am not sure what to do, if anything, to the +5 volt other than adding an inductor of the power-line filter variety in series. If I can find some feed-through capacitors of the threaded variety, I may add them to the back of the Thunderbolt enclosure to replace the original connector.
All of this will be mounted on the back of a 1U rack panel.
Now, if I could find the correct HP paint code ...
-- Flemming Larsen OZ6OI/KB6ADS Berkeley, CA, USA
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
My observation is that people who spend a lot of time at the keyboard tend to be more likely to have a pocket watch. That's even more so if they are younger and don't have a serious wrist watch habit.
Cell phone - who carries one of those?
If you are talking about a multi kilobuck watch, then you are well past the "I need to know the time" phase and into something more serious. It might indeed be bling, it could be that you are a (wrist) time nut :)...
When you look at what a very good pure mechanical watch can do it's pretty impressive. Quartz was out for quite a while before it could run anywhere as good as a top notch mechanical. They actually have standardized (had?) yearly testing of watch accuracy. The actual ran for a number months at various temperatures and orientations. The term "certified chronometer" apparently has meaning in Swiss law.
Bob
On Feb 16, 2011, at 2:10 AM, cook michael wrote:
Le 16/02/2011 07:21, Heathkid a écrit :
BLING?
Really? Seriously? A "watch" is considered "bling" now? Can you build a mechanical watch in your workshop that is as accurate as those manufactured 100 years ago? That's technology! Otherwise, a precision watch.... mechanical or electronic is just as on-topic as a Cs standard and I'd like to hear more about mechanical watches. Btw, the "tick" sounds nice too!
You appear to have misunderstood my comment. I entirely agree with you. When I mentioned "bling" I was talking about the fashion content.
----- Original Message ----- From: "cook michael" michael.cook@sfr.fr
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tool Needed to Access my Timer Battery
Le 16/02/2011 00:57, Chris Albertson a écrit :
How can watches be OT on a time-nuts list? Yes the technology of
today is electronic but mechanical time keeping was the center of this
art for centuries.
I agree , with the caveat that posts keep to technical topics. There
are plenty of product centric lists covering the bling side.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Many decades ago when digital displays and "quartz" clocks were a novelty, I built a table clock and presented it to my father a watch nut. He regularly teased me that my "digital" clock was slow or fast compared to his 25 year old Omega that he bought when I was born!
When you look at what a very good pure mechanical watch can do it's pretty impressive. Quartz was out for quite a while before it could run anywhere as good as a top notch mechanical. They actually have standardized (had?) yearly testing of watch accuracy. The actual ran for a number months at various temperatures and orientations. The term "certified chronometer" apparently has meaning in Swiss law.
Bob
--
Raj, VU2ZAP
Bangalore, India.
curious
Can you still get batteries for an omega???
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Raj vu2zap@gmail.com wrote:
Many decades ago when digital displays and "quartz" clocks were a novelty,
I built a table clock and presented it to my father a watch nut. He
regularly teased me that my "digital" clock was slow or fast compared to his
25 year old Omega that he bought when I was born!
When you look at what a very good pure mechanical watch can do it's pretty
impressive. Quartz was out for quite a while before it could run anywhere as
good as a top notch mechanical. They actually have standardized (had?)
yearly testing of watch accuracy. The actual ran for a number months at
various temperatures and orientations. The term "certified chronometer"
apparently has meaning in Swiss law.
Bob
--
Raj, VU2ZAP
Bangalore, India.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
That estimate is probably about right. It hasn't been quite that expensive
for me but then I have a couple of Omegas; gave my Rolex to my nephew years
ago.
For your money, they remove the movement (or the calibre...or the ébauche et
assortiments...depending on how horologically snooty you care to be. They
clean it, inspect it and replace worn parts, reassemble and lubricate. They
then test it for accuracy in their own lab. If it passes house standards,
they will send the movement (still out of the case at this point) to the
Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres where it will be tested for a
number of days, in a number of positions, at a number of temperatures.
Assuming it passes, they put it back into the case, which has, in the
meantime, been cleaned, repaired if needed, and buffed. They then ship the
watch back to you with a new warranty and a new COSC chronometer
certification.
Considering that the bottom end for a Rolex nowadays is on the order of $3K
and even a lowly Omega Seamaster starts at about $1500, this fee does not
seem excessive to me.
Of course, if'n you don't care, just take it to your local Kay's. After
all, every kiss begins with Kay. But understand that the kiss you get will
be kissing your fine movement goodbye much before its time.
But I wouldn't pay that to have a quartz watch overhauled. That is the care
you give to a fine mechanical calibre, not a crystal and a battery. After
all (shudder) it is quartz. Quartz belongs on the bench, not on your
wrist. Some Rolex owners are ashamed to admit that Rolex even makes a
quartz watch. If I had a pricey quartz watch and it failed, I'd probably
just have a new quartz movement from Seiko or whoever slapped into my
expensive case and get on with my life.
Those of you who no longer wear wrist watches and have some in your dresser
drawers with mechanical movements, feel free to send them to me. I'll sort
out the wheat from the chaff.[?]
Bill
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Chris Albertson
albertson.chris@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Flemming Larsen oz6oi@yahoo.dk wrote:
What exactly is "not that expensive" if I wanted to send it back to Omega
in Switzerland and what is the procedure?
Short answer: "about $400" but it comes back like new and with a warranty.
Longer answer: Note that CHF and USD are about 1:1 even, then look here
http://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/watch-repair/repair-prices
My parents were in Switzerland and found you can get MUCH better
prices if you are actually there and know a "local" who can point out
the best deals.
How can watches be OT on a time-nuts list? Yes the technology of
today is electronic but mechanical time keeping was the center of this
art for centuries.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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On 2/15/11 10:21 PM, Heathkid wrote:
BLING?
For time-nut bling... I suggest updating the cesium wrist watch on tvb's
site. Come on folks.. who will be the first to sell a real atomic
wristwatch (not one of those feeble things that receives a signal from
WWVB).
Doesn't have to be Cs or Hg primary standard.. it could be a secondary
atomic standard.
Really? Seriously? A "watch" is considered "bling" now? Can you build a
mechanical watch in your workshop that is as accurate as those
manufactured 100 years ago? That's technology! Otherwise, a precision
watch.... mechanical or electronic is just as on-topic as a Cs standard
and I'd like to hear more about mechanical watches. Btw, the "tick"
sounds nice too!
----- Original Message ----- From: "cook michael" michael.cook@sfr.fr
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tool Needed to Access my Timer Battery
Le 16/02/2011 00:57, Chris Albertson a écrit :
How can watches be OT on a time-nuts list? Yes the technology of
today is electronic but mechanical time keeping was the center of this
art for centuries.
I agree , with the caveat that posts keep to technical topics. There
are plenty of product centric lists covering the bling side.
On 2/15/11 11:10 PM, cook michael wrote:
Le 16/02/2011 07:21, Heathkid a écrit :
BLING?
Really? Seriously? A "watch" is considered "bling" now? Can you build
a mechanical watch in your workshop that is as accurate as those
manufactured 100 years ago? That's technology! Otherwise, a precision
watch.... mechanical or electronic is just as on-topic as a Cs
standard and I'd like to hear more about mechanical watches. Btw, the
"tick" sounds nice too!
You appear to have misunderstood my comment. I entirely agree with you.
When I mentioned "bling" I was talking about the fashion content.
having watched "The Devil Wears Prada" again, last weekend.. There's an
interesting monologue in there about the value of fashion..in re Andi's
poly blend blue sweater.
Fashion is important.. otherwise we'd all live in identical functional
minimalist boxes. Yes, we need things to work, first, but I don't see a
problem with style and fashion on top of it. Sometimes, it is the drive
to make something work in a "pretty" way that results in new
technologies that enable it, too.
Brunelleschi's work on the Duomo in Florence wasn't necessarily
motivated by the desire to build a bigger dome, per se, but because that
big dome enabled an architectural vision of a large clear span in the
building. To build that dome required (re)inventing a bunch of
technology and engineering.
This winter, I was in Egypt doing the usual monuments thing.. The
pyramids are impressive for their scale. What was impressive to me was
not the first step pyramid at Saqqara (which was basically piling
mastabas on top of each other) but was the adjacent temple (also
designed by Imhotep), with the idea of the colonnade and roof, etc. He
wasn't bold enough to try self supporting columns (they're sort of half
columns with a buttress to the surrounding wall), but he had the vision
of a room with a long clear span. That was something that hadn't ever
been built before. The idea of a pyramid is obvious to anyone who has
ever built a pile of rocks.. But a room with a big roof... that's not as
obvious.
I think if we are going to use terminology, we should try to use it correctly.
The term ebauche, is very similar to the term engine block. An ebauche is
an unfinished movement. It typically has not been fitted with all of the
jewels, balance, etc.. In Switzerland, like in Detroit, there are numerous
companies, also known as Ebauche, that build the parts that many name brand
manufacturers assemble into a finished unit... be it an engine, or a watch.
Just as a Volkeswagen Beetle, and a Porsche 914 use the same engine block,
but finish it for different purposes, an ebauche movement may receive quite
a lot of hot-rodding depending on the OEM customer. Some get their plates
dressed up with fine gilt lettering, Damasceening, extra jewels, and adjustments,
and others simply get stuffed into the watch case rough and unadorned.
The term calibre, is used two ways. The first is to show the general size
of a movement, in lignes. The second is to indicate the general layout, or
style of a movement. Movements of the same calibre can often be substituted
for an original movement, even though they are made, and finished, differently
than the original.
Companies like Rolex have traditionally done all of the manufacturing of their
movements in house. They do not use the Ebauche market as a source for any of
their parts. Other companies, like TAG/Heuer use nothing but Ebauche parts.
Quartz movements as found in the typical Bling brands, are all ebauche.
Mechanical watch movements have suffered greatly from the rapid depression of
the prices of sophisticated electronics, and the rapid rise of labor costs.
It was once possible for a watchmaker to spend his days fixing watches, at
a reasonably cheap price, and still keep his wife and kids fed clothed,
and living in a decent home.
But even back then, technology brought us the "Dollar Watch" that was so
cheap that it was never meant to be fixed. The start of the downfall of
the watchmaking profession.
Today, if a watchmaker charges $140 for a 3-4 hour service job, people complain
that it is too expensive. And yet, they would also complain if they didn't get
more than $140 for 3-4 hours of their time.
-Chuck Harris
William H. Fite wrote:
That estimate is probably about right. It hasn't been quite that expensive
for me but then I have a couple of Omegas; gave my Rolex to my nephew years
ago.
For your money, they remove the movement (or the calibre...or the ébauche et
assortiments...depending on how horologically snooty you care to be. They
clean it, inspect it and replace worn parts, reassemble and lubricate. They
then test it for accuracy in their own lab. If it passes house standards,
they will send the movement (still out of the case at this point) to the
Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres where it will be tested for a
number of days, in a number of positions, at a number of temperatures.
Assuming it passes, they put it back into the case, which has, in the
meantime, been cleaned, repaired if needed, and buffed. They then ship the
watch back to you with a new warranty and a new COSC chronometer
certification.
Considering that the bottom end for a Rolex nowadays is on the order of $3K
and even a lowly Omega Seamaster starts at about $1500, this fee does not
seem excessive to me.
Of course, if'n you don't care, just take it to your local Kay's. After
all, every kiss begins with Kay. But understand that the kiss you get will
be kissing your fine movement goodbye much before its time.
But I wouldn't pay that to have a quartz watch overhauled. That is the care
you give to a fine mechanical calibre, not a crystal and a battery. After
all (shudder) it is quartz. Quartz belongs on the bench, not on your
wrist. Some Rolex owners are ashamed to admit that Rolex even makes a
quartz watch. If I had a pricey quartz watch and it failed, I'd probably
just have a new quartz movement from Seiko or whoever slapped into my
expensive case and get on with my life.
Those of you who no longer wear wrist watches and have some in your dresser
drawers with mechanical movements, feel free to send them to me. I'll sort
out the wheat from the chaff.[?]
Bill
$400 is about what I expect to pay at a reputable watch repair shop in San Francisco (Geneva Watch Repair) to restore my Omega Constellation, calibre 564, chronometer. Probably well worth it although probably close to what it cost new in 1971.
I think I will take my 1978 Seiko Chronograph, battery-powered quartz watch in for a checkup and battery replacement as well.
Thanks,
-- Flemming Larsen
--- Den tirs 15/2/11 skrev Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com:
What exactly is "not that expensive" if I wanted to
send it back to Omega in Switzerland and what is the
procedure?
Short answer: "about $400" but it comes back like new and
with a warranty.
Longer answer: Note that CHF and USD are about 1:1
even, then look here
http://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/watch-repair/repair-prices
My parents were in Switzerland and found you can get MUCH
better
prices if you are actually there and know a "local" who can
point out
the best deals.
How can watches be OT on a time-nuts list? Yes the
technology of
today is electronic but mechanical time keeping was the
center of this
art for centuries.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Hi
All of that sounds so simple. Unfortunately there are lots of little
details. Back a long time ago the very large outfit I worked for decided to
make quartz watch movements. It's just electronics.
There were about five of us who did work on the watch electronics. I was
involved with the analog (stepper motor) design. They also had an LCD
design. To this day I prefer stepper motor versions of the quartz movement.
Likely that's designer bias.
Lots of little details and you have to get them all right. They focused on
the timing side of it, got that right. There were a few reliability bumps,
got them straightened out quickly. Technically they were a fine little group
of gizmos.
They missed what one might call the fashion side of it - bad move. Watch
cases come in two basic sizes. You don't make a movement that's to big for
the small case and to small for the big one - double bad move. They also got
caught making it all themselves - triple bad move.
Net result was about a $100 mil loss (in 1970's dollars) and an exit from
the market / sale of the brand name.
Timing technology is not all of it.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:38 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tool Needed to Access my Timer Battery
I think if we are going to use terminology, we should try to use it
correctly.
The term ebauche, is very similar to the term engine block. An ebauche is
an unfinished movement. It typically has not been fitted with all of the
jewels, balance, etc.. In Switzerland, like in Detroit, there are numerous
companies, also known as Ebauche, that build the parts that many name brand
manufacturers assemble into a finished unit... be it an engine, or a watch.
Just as a Volkeswagen Beetle, and a Porsche 914 use the same engine block,
but finish it for different purposes, an ebauche movement may receive quite
a lot of hot-rodding depending on the OEM customer. Some get their plates
dressed up with fine gilt lettering, Damasceening, extra jewels, and
adjustments,
and others simply get stuffed into the watch case rough and unadorned.
The term calibre, is used two ways. The first is to show the general size
of a movement, in lignes. The second is to indicate the general layout, or
style of a movement. Movements of the same calibre can often be substituted
for an original movement, even though they are made, and finished,
differently
than the original.
Companies like Rolex have traditionally done all of the manufacturing of
their
movements in house. They do not use the Ebauche market as a source for any
of
their parts. Other companies, like TAG/Heuer use nothing but Ebauche parts.
Quartz movements as found in the typical Bling brands, are all ebauche.
Mechanical watch movements have suffered greatly from the rapid depression
of
the prices of sophisticated electronics, and the rapid rise of labor costs.
It was once possible for a watchmaker to spend his days fixing watches, at
a reasonably cheap price, and still keep his wife and kids fed clothed,
and living in a decent home.
But even back then, technology brought us the "Dollar Watch" that was so
cheap that it was never meant to be fixed. The start of the downfall of
the watchmaking profession.
Today, if a watchmaker charges $140 for a 3-4 hour service job, people
complain
that it is too expensive. And yet, they would also complain if they didn't
get
more than $140 for 3-4 hours of their time.
-Chuck Harris
William H. Fite wrote:
That estimate is probably about right. It hasn't been quite that
expensive
for me but then I have a couple of Omegas; gave my Rolex to my nephew
years
ago.
For your money, they remove the movement (or the calibre...or the ébauche
et
assortiments...depending on how horologically snooty you care to be. They
clean it, inspect it and replace worn parts, reassemble and lubricate.
They
then test it for accuracy in their own lab. If it passes house standards,
they will send the movement (still out of the case at this point) to the
Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres where it will be tested for a
number of days, in a number of positions, at a number of temperatures.
Assuming it passes, they put it back into the case, which has, in the
meantime, been cleaned, repaired if needed, and buffed. They then ship
the
watch back to you with a new warranty and a new COSC chronometer
certification.
Considering that the bottom end for a Rolex nowadays is on the order of
$3K
and even a lowly Omega Seamaster starts at about $1500, this fee does not
seem excessive to me.
Of course, if'n you don't care, just take it to your local Kay's. After
all, every kiss begins with Kay. But understand that the kiss you get
will
be kissing your fine movement goodbye much before its time.
But I wouldn't pay that to have a quartz watch overhauled. That is the
care
you give to a fine mechanical calibre, not a crystal and a battery. After
all (shudder) it is quartz. Quartz belongs on the bench, not on your
wrist. Some Rolex owners are ashamed to admit that Rolex even makes a
quartz watch. If I had a pricey quartz watch and it failed, I'd probably
just have a new quartz movement from Seiko or whoever slapped into my
expensive case and get on with my life.
Those of you who no longer wear wrist watches and have some in your
dresser
drawers with mechanical movements, feel free to send them to me. I'll
sort
out the wheat from the chaff.[?]
Bill
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I figured someone would pounce on my post. If you think that time nuts can
be competitive, try watch nuts. None of us agrees with any of the rest of
us, no matter what.
It is true that the term ebauche, as it is used in the trade, very often
refers to an incomplete movement. It may or may not be fitted with jewels,
springs, escapment, balance wheel. The term is used loosely in the watch
business except, of course, that each of us knows precisely how it should be
used and everyone else is wrong. [?]
Ebauche is used in a less technical way to refer to a movement that is not
built in-house but rather is purchased, more-or-less tweaked, and put into a
house case. It is sometimes (by Rolex fanbois, for example) used as a term
of derision, as the use of an outsourced ebauche is considered to be less
prestigious than building your own movements in house. I'll leave that
debate for another day.
When an ebauche is outsourced, the assembler will specify what he wants to
be supplied. It can be anything from the plates and pillars all the way up
to a fully assembled, ready-to-run movement. The more upscale the
assembler, the more likely they are to want to insert some of their own
parts, do some fancy milling and engraving, etc., some to improve
performance, some just to look sexy. The Omega Seamaster that I am wearing
at this moment (a 2255.80.00) uses the ETA 2892-A2 ebauche and modifies it
extensively, then refers to it as either the Omega 1120 calibre or the 1120
movement.
All that being said, at least Omega (won't speak for others) refers to the
uncased movement, when it goes to COSC for testing as an ebauche. Whether
they mean by that that they bought it from ETA or just that it is an uncased
movement would be for them to answer.
Chuck is right in pointing out that terminology should be used correctly
which is why I wrote "ebauche et assortiments" which, in context, means "all
the parts and pieces" of the movement. And that covers it adequately
whether the ebauche, itself, comes ready-to-run or just as a handful of
components.
He quite accurately corrects my use of the term "calibre" (yeah, we fuss
over how to spell it, too...). His definition, including both the
measurement of the movement in lignes and the general configuration of the
movement such that it will fit a specific case, is right on target. It is,
however, not uncommon to hear people say calibre to refer to a movement as a
whole. Omega, for example, refers in some of its literature to the "1120
calibre," by which they mean the whole movement.
A ligne is 1/12 of an inch, by the way.
And we could go on from here but you would probably rather get back to
filtering that Tbolt power supply.
Bill
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Chuck Harris cfharris@erols.com wrote:
I think if we are going to use terminology, we should try to use it
correctly.
The term ebauche, is very similar to the term engine block. An ebauche is
an unfinished movement. It typically has not been fitted with all of the
jewels, balance, etc.. In Switzerland, like in Detroit, there are numerous
companies, also known as Ebauche, that build the parts that many name brand
manufacturers assemble into a finished unit... be it an engine, or a watch.
Just as a Volkeswagen Beetle, and a Porsche 914 use the same engine block,
but finish it for different purposes, an ebauche movement may receive quite
a lot of hot-rodding depending on the OEM customer. Some get their plates
dressed up with fine gilt lettering, Damasceening, extra jewels, and
adjustments,
and others simply get stuffed into the watch case rough and unadorned.
The term calibre, is used two ways. The first is to show the general size
of a movement, in lignes. The second is to indicate the general layout, or
style of a movement. Movements of the same calibre can often be
substituted
for an original movement, even though they are made, and finished,
differently
than the original.
Companies like Rolex have traditionally done all of the manufacturing of
their
movements in house. They do not use the Ebauche market as a source for any
of
their parts. Other companies, like TAG/Heuer use nothing but Ebauche
parts.
Quartz movements as found in the typical Bling brands, are all ebauche.
Mechanical watch movements have suffered greatly from the rapid depression
of
the prices of sophisticated electronics, and the rapid rise of labor costs.
It was once possible for a watchmaker to spend his days fixing watches, at
a reasonably cheap price, and still keep his wife and kids fed clothed,
and living in a decent home.
But even back then, technology brought us the "Dollar Watch" that was so
cheap that it was never meant to be fixed. The start of the downfall of
the watchmaking profession.
Today, if a watchmaker charges $140 for a 3-4 hour service job, people
complain
that it is too expensive. And yet, they would also complain if they didn't
get
more than $140 for 3-4 hours of their time.
-Chuck Harris
William H. Fite wrote:
That estimate is probably about right. It hasn't been quite that
expensive
for me but then I have a couple of Omegas; gave my Rolex to my nephew
years
ago.
For your money, they remove the movement (or the calibre...or the ébauche
et
assortiments...depending on how horologically snooty you care to be. They
clean it, inspect it and replace worn parts, reassemble and lubricate.
They
then test it for accuracy in their own lab. If it passes house standards,
they will send the movement (still out of the case at this point) to the
Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres where it will be tested for a
number of days, in a number of positions, at a number of temperatures.
Assuming it passes, they put it back into the case, which has, in the
meantime, been cleaned, repaired if needed, and buffed. They then ship
the
watch back to you with a new warranty and a new COSC chronometer
certification.
Considering that the bottom end for a Rolex nowadays is on the order of
$3K
and even a lowly Omega Seamaster starts at about $1500, this fee does not
seem excessive to me.
Of course, if'n you don't care, just take it to your local Kay's. After
all, every kiss begins with Kay. But understand that the kiss you get
will
be kissing your fine movement goodbye much before its time.
But I wouldn't pay that to have a quartz watch overhauled. That is the
care
you give to a fine mechanical calibre, not a crystal and a battery. After
all (shudder) it is quartz. Quartz belongs on the bench, not on your
wrist. Some Rolex owners are ashamed to admit that Rolex even makes a
quartz watch. If I had a pricey quartz watch and it failed, I'd probably
just have a new quartz movement from Seiko or whoever slapped into my
expensive case and get on with my life.
Those of you who no longer wear wrist watches and have some in your
dresser
drawers with mechanical movements, feel free to send them to me. I'll
sort
out the wheat from the chaff.[?]
Bill
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
AHA! The English system triumphs over that Metric nonsense.
My Rolex stopped working about 20 years ago. OTOH, my $12 Timex analog
quartz still works fine....
I think. At least it was working when I misplaced it a year ago. Since
then, I've discovered I really don't need to know time to much better than
+/- 10 minutes.
FWIW,
-John
==============
I figured someone would pounce on my post. If you think that time nuts
can
be competitive, try watch nuts. None of us agrees with any of the rest of
us, no matter what.
It is true that the term ebauche, as it is used in the trade, very often
refers to an incomplete movement. It may or may not be fitted with
jewels,
springs, escapment, balance wheel. The term is used loosely in the watch
business except, of course, that each of us knows precisely how it should
be
used and everyone else is wrong. [?]
Ebauche is used in a less technical way to refer to a movement that is not
built in-house but rather is purchased, more-or-less tweaked, and put into
a
house case. It is sometimes (by Rolex fanbois, for example) used as a
term
of derision, as the use of an outsourced ebauche is considered to be less
prestigious than building your own movements in house. I'll leave that
debate for another day.
When an ebauche is outsourced, the assembler will specify what he wants to
be supplied. It can be anything from the plates and pillars all the way
up
to a fully assembled, ready-to-run movement. The more upscale the
assembler, the more likely they are to want to insert some of their own
parts, do some fancy milling and engraving, etc., some to improve
performance, some just to look sexy. The Omega Seamaster that I am
wearing
at this moment (a 2255.80.00) uses the ETA 2892-A2 ebauche and modifies it
extensively, then refers to it as either the Omega 1120 calibre or the
1120
movement.
All that being said, at least Omega (won't speak for others) refers to the
uncased movement, when it goes to COSC for testing as an ebauche. Whether
they mean by that that they bought it from ETA or just that it is an
uncased
movement would be for them to answer.
Chuck is right in pointing out that terminology should be used correctly
which is why I wrote "ebauche et assortiments" which, in context, means
"all
the parts and pieces" of the movement. And that covers it adequately
whether the ebauche, itself, comes ready-to-run or just as a handful of
components.
He quite accurately corrects my use of the term "calibre" (yeah, we fuss
over how to spell it, too...). His definition, including both the
measurement of the movement in lignes and the general configuration of the
movement such that it will fit a specific case, is right on target. It
is,
however, not uncommon to hear people say calibre to refer to a movement as
a
whole. Omega, for example, refers in some of its literature to the "1120
calibre," by which they mean the whole movement.
A ligne is 1/12 of an inch, by the way.
And we could go on from here but you would probably rather get back to
filtering that Tbolt power supply.
Bill
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Chuck Harris cfharris@erols.com wrote:
I think if we are going to use terminology, we should try to use it
correctly.
The term ebauche, is very similar to the term engine block. An ebauche
is
an unfinished movement. It typically has not been fitted with all of
the
jewels, balance, etc.. In Switzerland, like in Detroit, there are
numerous
companies, also known as Ebauche, that build the parts that many name
brand
manufacturers assemble into a finished unit... be it an engine, or a
watch.
Just as a Volkeswagen Beetle, and a Porsche 914 use the same engine
block,
but finish it for different purposes, an ebauche movement may receive
quite
a lot of hot-rodding depending on the OEM customer. Some get their
plates
dressed up with fine gilt lettering, Damasceening, extra jewels, and
adjustments,
and others simply get stuffed into the watch case rough and unadorned.
The term calibre, is used two ways. The first is to show the general
size
of a movement, in lignes. The second is to indicate the general layout,
or
style of a movement. Movements of the same calibre can often be
substituted
for an original movement, even though they are made, and finished,
differently
than the original.
Companies like Rolex have traditionally done all of the manufacturing of
their
movements in house. They do not use the Ebauche market as a source for
any
of
their parts. Other companies, like TAG/Heuer use nothing but Ebauche
parts.
Quartz movements as found in the typical Bling brands, are all ebauche.
Mechanical watch movements have suffered greatly from the rapid
depression
of
the prices of sophisticated electronics, and the rapid rise of labor
costs.
It was once possible for a watchmaker to spend his days fixing watches,
at
a reasonably cheap price, and still keep his wife and kids fed clothed,
and living in a decent home.
But even back then, technology brought us the "Dollar Watch" that was so
cheap that it was never meant to be fixed. The start of the downfall of
the watchmaking profession.
Today, if a watchmaker charges $140 for a 3-4 hour service job, people
complain
that it is too expensive. And yet, they would also complain if they
didn't
get
more than $140 for 3-4 hours of their time.
-Chuck Harris
William H. Fite wrote:
That estimate is probably about right. It hasn't been quite that
expensive
for me but then I have a couple of Omegas; gave my Rolex to my nephew
years
ago.
For your money, they remove the movement (or the calibre...or the
ébauche
et
assortiments...depending on how horologically snooty you care to be.
They
clean it, inspect it and replace worn parts, reassemble and lubricate.
They
then test it for accuracy in their own lab. If it passes house
standards,
they will send the movement (still out of the case at this point) to
the
Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres where it will be tested for a
number of days, in a number of positions, at a number of temperatures.
Assuming it passes, they put it back into the case, which has, in the
meantime, been cleaned, repaired if needed, and buffed. They then ship
the
watch back to you with a new warranty and a new COSC chronometer
certification.
Considering that the bottom end for a Rolex nowadays is on the order of
$3K
and even a lowly Omega Seamaster starts at about $1500, this fee does
not
seem excessive to me.
Of course, if'n you don't care, just take it to your local Kay's.
After
all, every kiss begins with Kay. But understand that the kiss you get
will
be kissing your fine movement goodbye much before its time.
But I wouldn't pay that to have a quartz watch overhauled. That is the
care
you give to a fine mechanical calibre, not a crystal and a battery.
After
all (shudder) it is quartz. Quartz belongs on the bench, not on your
wrist. Some Rolex owners are ashamed to admit that Rolex even makes a
quartz watch. If I had a pricey quartz watch and it failed, I'd
probably
just have a new quartz movement from Seiko or whoever slapped into my
expensive case and get on with my life.
Those of you who no longer wear wrist watches and have some in your
dresser
drawers with mechanical movements, feel free to send them to me. I'll
sort
out the wheat from the chaff.[?]
Bill
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Approximately 2.25mm (that metric nonsense). [?]
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:05 PM, J. Forster jfor@quik.com wrote:
AHA! The English system triumphs over that Metric nonsense.
My Rolex stopped working about 20 years ago. OTOH, my $12 Timex analog
quartz still works fine....
I think. At least it was working when I misplaced it a year ago. Since
then, I've discovered I really don't need to know time to much better than
+/- 10 minutes.
FWIW,
-John
==============
I figured someone would pounce on my post. If you think that time nuts
can
be competitive, try watch nuts. None of us agrees with any of the rest
of
us, no matter what.
It is true that the term ebauche, as it is used in the trade, very often
refers to an incomplete movement. It may or may not be fitted with
jewels,
springs, escapment, balance wheel. The term is used loosely in the watch
business except, of course, that each of us knows precisely how it should
be
used and everyone else is wrong. [?]
Ebauche is used in a less technical way to refer to a movement that is
not
built in-house but rather is purchased, more-or-less tweaked, and put
into
a
house case. It is sometimes (by Rolex fanbois, for example) used as a
term
of derision, as the use of an outsourced ebauche is considered to be less
prestigious than building your own movements in house. I'll leave that
debate for another day.
When an ebauche is outsourced, the assembler will specify what he wants
to
be supplied. It can be anything from the plates and pillars all the way
up
to a fully assembled, ready-to-run movement. The more upscale the
assembler, the more likely they are to want to insert some of their own
parts, do some fancy milling and engraving, etc., some to improve
performance, some just to look sexy. The Omega Seamaster that I am
wearing
at this moment (a 2255.80.00) uses the ETA 2892-A2 ebauche and modifies
it
extensively, then refers to it as either the Omega 1120 calibre or the
1120
movement.
All that being said, at least Omega (won't speak for others) refers to
the
uncased movement, when it goes to COSC for testing as an ebauche.
Whether
they mean by that that they bought it from ETA or just that it is an
uncased
movement would be for them to answer.
Chuck is right in pointing out that terminology should be used correctly
which is why I wrote "ebauche et assortiments" which, in context, means
"all
the parts and pieces" of the movement. And that covers it adequately
whether the ebauche, itself, comes ready-to-run or just as a handful of
components.
He quite accurately corrects my use of the term "calibre" (yeah, we fuss
over how to spell it, too...). His definition, including both the
measurement of the movement in lignes and the general configuration of
the
movement such that it will fit a specific case, is right on target. It
is,
however, not uncommon to hear people say calibre to refer to a movement
as
a
whole. Omega, for example, refers in some of its literature to the
"1120
calibre," by which they mean the whole movement.
A ligne is 1/12 of an inch, by the way.
And we could go on from here but you would probably rather get back to
filtering that Tbolt power supply.
Bill
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Chuck Harris cfharris@erols.com
wrote:
I think if we are going to use terminology, we should try to use it
correctly.
The term ebauche, is very similar to the term engine block. An ebauche
is
an unfinished movement. It typically has not been fitted with all of
the
jewels, balance, etc.. In Switzerland, like in Detroit, there are
numerous
companies, also known as Ebauche, that build the parts that many name
brand
manufacturers assemble into a finished unit... be it an engine, or a
watch.
Just as a Volkeswagen Beetle, and a Porsche 914 use the same engine
block,
but finish it for different purposes, an ebauche movement may receive
quite
a lot of hot-rodding depending on the OEM customer. Some get their
plates
dressed up with fine gilt lettering, Damasceening, extra jewels, and
adjustments,
and others simply get stuffed into the watch case rough and unadorned.
The term calibre, is used two ways. The first is to show the general
size
of a movement, in lignes. The second is to indicate the general layout,
or
style of a movement. Movements of the same calibre can often be
substituted
for an original movement, even though they are made, and finished,
differently
than the original.
Companies like Rolex have traditionally done all of the manufacturing of
their
movements in house. They do not use the Ebauche market as a source for
any
of
their parts. Other companies, like TAG/Heuer use nothing but Ebauche
parts.
Quartz movements as found in the typical Bling brands, are all ebauche.
Mechanical watch movements have suffered greatly from the rapid
depression
of
the prices of sophisticated electronics, and the rapid rise of labor
costs.
It was once possible for a watchmaker to spend his days fixing watches,
at
a reasonably cheap price, and still keep his wife and kids fed clothed,
and living in a decent home.
But even back then, technology brought us the "Dollar Watch" that was so
cheap that it was never meant to be fixed. The start of the downfall of
the watchmaking profession.
Today, if a watchmaker charges $140 for a 3-4 hour service job, people
complain
that it is too expensive. And yet, they would also complain if they
didn't
get
more than $140 for 3-4 hours of their time.
-Chuck Harris
William H. Fite wrote:
That estimate is probably about right. It hasn't been quite that
expensive
for me but then I have a couple of Omegas; gave my Rolex to my nephew
years
ago.
For your money, they remove the movement (or the calibre...or the
ébauche
et
assortiments...depending on how horologically snooty you care to be.
They
clean it, inspect it and replace worn parts, reassemble and lubricate.
They
then test it for accuracy in their own lab. If it passes house
standards,
they will send the movement (still out of the case at this point) to
the
Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres where it will be tested for a
number of days, in a number of positions, at a number of temperatures.
Assuming it passes, they put it back into the case, which has, in the
meantime, been cleaned, repaired if needed, and buffed. They then ship
the
watch back to you with a new warranty and a new COSC chronometer
certification.
Considering that the bottom end for a Rolex nowadays is on the order of
$3K
and even a lowly Omega Seamaster starts at about $1500, this fee does
not
seem excessive to me.
Of course, if'n you don't care, just take it to your local Kay's.
After
all, every kiss begins with Kay. But understand that the kiss you get
will
be kissing your fine movement goodbye much before its time.
But I wouldn't pay that to have a quartz watch overhauled. That is the
care
you give to a fine mechanical calibre, not a crystal and a battery.
After
all (shudder) it is quartz. Quartz belongs on the bench, not on your
wrist. Some Rolex owners are ashamed to admit that Rolex even makes a
quartz watch. If I had a pricey quartz watch and it failed, I'd
probably
just have a new quartz movement from Seiko or whoever slapped into my
expensive case and get on with my life.
Those of you who no longer wear wrist watches and have some in your
dresser
drawers with mechanical movements, feel free to send them to me. I'll
sort
out the wheat from the chaff.[?]
Bill
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