WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
GM List,
What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.
The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable critical tasks.
But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite from the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are numerous reports of shall we say Malicious Tinkering on other satellites.
Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or degradation from a land based source.
The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those in the current applicable leadership of the US government. One proof of this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending amount of several trillion dollars a year.
But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and perhaps might be revived.
A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection at least for the USA GPS system. Here’s why. It still is very difficult and expensive to damage/destroy satellites. That there are viable alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the rogue states from making such an effort.
WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about 75 years. NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57 per cent.
Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output power. For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver.
So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme.
Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an adequate signal.
Regards,
Perry Sandeen
Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up?
It has about 800 ft of wire.
Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +.
Compared to a 2.5 ft loop.
Yes higher power would be good.
Regards
paul
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandeenpa@yahoo.com wrote:
GM List,
What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the
democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency
information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those
nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.
The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing
inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for
innumerable critical tasks.
But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or
degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge
states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite from
the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are numerous
reports of shall we say Malicious Tinkering on other satellites.
Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the
need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches
available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued
destruction or degradation from a land based source.
The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those
in the current applicable leadership of the US government. One proof of
this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending
amount of several trillion dollars a year.
But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and
perhaps might be revived.
A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an
alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection
at least for the USA GPS system. Here’s why. It still is very difficult
and expensive to damage/destroy satellites. That there are viable
alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the
rogue states from making such an effort.
WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM
broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about
75 years. NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57
per cent.
Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output
power. For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is
heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver.
So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the
relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central
U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per
meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and
provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could
phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to
problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme.
Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to
install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an
adequate signal.
Regards,
Perry Sandeen
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Offhand I'd estimate it would be easier for some "bad guys"
to put a crude A-bomb on top of a SCUD and put America
into the horse and buggy age with an EMP attack than to
take out a significant number of GPS satellites.
NLK in Washington state has been off the for almost
two months now. Depending on which list one looks at,
NLK transmits on 24.8 with 300 to 1000 kilowatts.
Perhaps NLK could be retuned to send the WWVB signal.
--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R caf@omen.com www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
Omen Technology Inc "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430
Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air.
It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.
I could easily see it with a small (1') loop and a 'scope.
YMMV,
-John
==================
Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up?
It has about 800 ft of wire.
Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +.
Compared to a 2.5 ft loop.
Yes higher power would be good.
Regards
paul
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandeenpa@yahoo.com
wrote:
GM List,
What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the
democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate
time/frequency
information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those
nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.
The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing
inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on
for
innumerable critical tasks.
But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or
degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge
states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite
from
the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are
numerous
reports of shall we say Malicious Tinkering on other satellites.
Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the
need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches
available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued
destruction or degradation from a land based source.
The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those
in the current applicable leadership of the US government. One proof of
this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending
amount of several trillion dollars a year.
But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS
and
perhaps might be revived.
A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an
alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide
protection
at least for the USA GPS system. Heres why. It still is very
difficult
and expensive to damage/destroy satellites. That there are viable
alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage
the
rogue states from making such an effort.
WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum
AM
broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for
about
75 years. NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57
per cent.
Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output
power. For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and
is
heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver.
So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the
relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical
central
U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per
meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere
and
provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could
phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to
problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme.
Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to
install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for
an
adequate signal.
Regards,
Perry Sandeen
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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On 07/15/2012 11:48 AM, J. Forster wrote:
Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air.
It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.
A first place to look to check out that claim would be:
http://www.emsec.rub.de/media/crypto/attachments/files/2011/03/BeckerMasterthesis.pdf
It refers to this paper:
http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/LoENCGNSS09.pdf
For jamming and spoofing detection and counter-measures, as well as
eLoran support, new receivers would be needed.
Cheers,
Magnus
Notice I said 'some'. One station would suffice. I'm only interested in a
standard of time interval.
-John
=================
On 07/15/2012 11:48 AM, J. Forster wrote:
Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the
air.
It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.
A first place to look to check out that claim would be:
http://www.emsec.rub.de/media/crypto/attachments/files/2011/03/BeckerMasterthesis.pdf
It refers to this paper:
http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/LoENCGNSS09.pdf
For jamming and spoofing detection and counter-measures, as well as
eLoran support, new receivers would be needed.
Cheers,
Magnus
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https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 07/15/2012 12:49 PM, J. Forster wrote:
Notice I said 'some'. One station would suffice. I'm only interested in a
standard of time interval.
That may not be sufficient for other uses, such as navigation. Firing
one up for frequency source only would probably not be motivated.
Cheers,
Magnus
Hi
The only way for redundancy to do any good is for it to be designed into systems. That simply is not done. It was not done back when "everything" was on the air. It's not going to be done now (can't) or in the future (prediction). Why? It costs money, it did cost money, it will cost money. It's not because people don't / didn't know about the alternatives. Qualcomm was fielding Loran-C based timing long before viable GPS came along. It's also not because people like a single source of sync. It's an economic decision. There are lots of identical decisions made about all sorts of aspects of a complex system. There are many ways to take out a cell system….
Bob
On Jul 14, 2012, at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen wrote:
GM List,
What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.
The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable critical tasks.
But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite from the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are numerous reports of shall we say Malicious Tinkering on other satellites.
Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or degradation from a land based source.
The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those in the current applicable leadership of the US government. One proof of this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending amount of several trillion dollars a year.
But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and perhaps might be revived.
A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection at least for the USA GPS system. Here’s why. It still is very difficult and expensive to damage/destroy satellites. That there are viable alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the rogue states from making such an effort.
WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about 75 years. NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57 per cent.
Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output power. For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver.
So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme.
Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an adequate signal.
Regards,
Perry Sandeen
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:48 AM, J. Forster jfor@quikus.com wrote:
Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air.
It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.
I could easily see it with a small (1') loop and a 'scope.
YMMV,
-John
==================
Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up?
It has about 800 ft of wire.
Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +.
Compared to a 2.5 ft loop.
Yes higher power would be good.
Regards
paul
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandeenpa@yahoo.com
wrote:
GM List,
What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the
democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate
time/frequency
information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those
nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.
The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing
inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on
for
innumerable critical tasks.
But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or
degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge
states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite
from
the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are
numerous
reports of shall we say Malicious Tinkering on other satellites.
Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the
need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches
available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued
destruction or degradation from a land based source.
If you are worried about the system surviving an attack, a Loran
system can be taken out by something as un-sophisticated as just one
car bomb. One guy working along could do it. Taking out a
satellite at 400 miles up is a MUCH harder problem.
Don't say people in the government don't think about this. One
solution being worked is very small satellites. What can yo pack in a
one cubic foot box? What if you could launch 100 such boxes from a
solid fueled rocked based in a silo (like an ICBM that can be launched
on a VERY short count down) Othr research ares are "mesh networks"
That might address the question of "what could you do with 100,000
iPhones in orbit.
If you are worried about security and jamming the solution is NOT a
powerful, wide area broadcast. No you use a great number of tiny
overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature.
Think about rats and cockroaches
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
Hi
…. and the same cockroach approach is by far the easier way to take out a cell system.
Bob
On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:48 AM, J. Forster jfor@quikus.com wrote:
Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air.
It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.
I could easily see it with a small (1') loop and a 'scope.
YMMV,
-John
==================
Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up?
It has about 800 ft of wire.
Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +.
Compared to a 2.5 ft loop.
Yes higher power would be good.
Regards
paul
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandeenpa@yahoo.com
wrote:
GM List,
What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the
democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate
time/frequency
information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those
nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.
The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing
inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on
for
innumerable critical tasks.
But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or
degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge
states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite
from
the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are
numerous
reports of shall we say Malicious Tinkering on other satellites.
Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the
need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches
available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued
destruction or degradation from a land based source.
If you are worried about the system surviving an attack, a Loran
system can be taken out by something as un-sophisticated as just one
car bomb. One guy working along could do it. Taking out a
satellite at 400 miles up is a MUCH harder problem.
Don't say people in the government don't think about this. One
solution being worked is very small satellites. What can yo pack in a
one cubic foot box? What if you could launch 100 such boxes from a
solid fueled rocked based in a silo (like an ICBM that can be launched
on a VERY short count down) Othr research ares are "mesh networks"
That might address the question of "what could you do with 100,000
iPhones in orbit.
If you are worried about security and jamming the solution is NOT a
powerful, wide area broadcast. No you use a great number of tiny
overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature.
Think about rats and cockroaches
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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