Nobeltec and other choices
John,
Wouldn't you hate to be the boss at either Nobeltec or Rose Point when dealing with customers like:
--John Marshall, a vocal champion and beta tester of Coastal Explorer, who suddenly finds himself with a strong preference for Nobeltec because of the superior cartography offered by its C-Map charts, and
--Milt Baker, a 20+ year user of Nobeltec from very first iteration and someone who sold thousands of Nobeltec systems, who is now running Coastal Explorer because he hates the buggy MaxPro and feels that Nobeltec may teetering on what may be its last legs.
What a world, eh? :-)
--Milt
True, but at least Rosepoint is small enough to turn on a dime. I guess that
you can't just "open your program up" to C-Map; assuming that it's
proprietary, but maybe you can. Or maybe it can be cracked. If Jeppeson
unloads Nobletec, they should then be happy to get as many C-mapping
customers as possible. The Chart Kit maps merge with CE very well.
Ron Rogers
Exactly, Milt... strange how different people are going opposite ways
based on their local preferences.
But if someone could simultaneously deliver the best charting and the
best software, the game would be over.
I suppose if I only cruised in the continental US, or I didn't have a
fondness for vector charts, then Rose Point would have it all. NOAA
ENC's and BSB's in continental US (west coast, anyway) are great.
It's in Alaska where the NOAA ENC's are poor, and Canada where the
Navionics ENC's are deficient.
And, of course, the game probably has entirely different rules if you
travel to other places.
John
On Sep 19, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Milt Baker wrote:
John,
Wouldn't you hate to be the boss at either Nobeltec or Rose Point
when dealing with customers like:
--John Marshall, a vocal champion and beta tester of Coastal
Explorer, who suddenly finds himself with a strong preference for
Nobeltec because of the superior cartography offered by its C-Map
charts, and
--Milt Baker, a 20+ year user of Nobeltec from very first iteration
and someone who sold thousands of Nobeltec systems, who is now
running Coastal Explorer because he hates the buggy MaxPro and feels
that Nobeltec may teetering on what may be its last legs.
What a world, eh? :-)
--Milt
That would be my dream... opening Rose Point up to C-Map Max Pro-grade
of charts. At that point, it would be game over for Nobeltec.
If Boeing spins off Nobeltec (as is rumored) and keeps C-Map
cartography, I suppose that could happen.
John
On Sep 19, 2009, at 2:27 PM, Ron Rogers wrote:
True, but at least Rosepoint is small enough to turn on a dime. I
guess that
you can't just "open your program up" to C-Map; assuming that it's
proprietary, but maybe you can. Or maybe it can be cracked. If
Jeppeson
unloads Nobletec, they should then be happy to get as many C-mapping
customers as possible. The Chart Kit maps merge with CE very well.
Ron Rogers
personally, for navigating in the US I cant' imagine paying a dime for
software or charts when either Seaclear or OpenCPN do the job with 100%
reliability. they may be lacking a few high end routing function, but i
rarely use routes anyway, I really just use the GPS to confirm where i am,
along with my speed. I really need routes and waypoints, either software
has basic functions that do the job.
for charts, NOAA free charts work great...
for the bahamas, I'm going to scan my paper charts and import them.. I've
done a couple of test, it works fine and doens't take too long... worth the
savings.
I dont' get the point of getting to complicated with simple nav tasks.
pascal
miami, fl
hatteras 53MY
John, I guess I have different results with MaxPro charts, at least on the
West Coast of the U.S. I "cut my teeth" on Nobeltec back in VNS 7.0 and
learned to love it. Yes, it was not a true Windows application, as I'm told
CE is, and that would have been nice. But I liked the Passport Charts that
came with it.
The charts for the latest version, VNS MaxPro 10.x, are not as user-friendly
nor as complete as those for the last VNS 9.x version I had. I understand
that many have migrated back to 9.3 and other earlier versions, but I'm told
it's because they have found problems with the current version of the
Nobeltec VNS program. I have found no such problems, it runs as advertised.
But the charts aren't as complete or as accurate as the earlier Passport
versions I liked.
Bob Peterson
"Lopaka Nane"
47' Lien Hwa CPMY
San Francisco
-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of John
Marshall
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 5:28 PM
To: Ron Rogers
Cc: 'Milt Baker'; 'Trawlers and Trawlering List'
Subject: Re: T&T: Nobeltec and other choices
That would be my dream... opening Rose Point up to C-Map Max Pro-grade
of charts. At that point, it would be game over for Nobeltec.
If Boeing spins off Nobeltec (as is rumored) and keeps C-Map
cartography, I suppose that could happen.
John
.
Bob,
I haven't done a lot of detailed comparison between C-MAP MAXPRO
charts and Passport, however I have compared MAXPRO charts to the NOAA
vectors for Alaska and the Navionics vectors for Canada, and the
MAXPRO charts are far better than those, in my opinion. I only
mentioned that because those are the only vector charts available for
those areas for CE.
I've ruled out staying on Passport charts given they are no longer
being updated. It's surprising the number of updates that NOAA
releases that eventually get passed through to C-MAP or other
derivative suppliers. Some of those updates are very significant...
for instance, the latest NOAA chart (released this year) for my home
port, Sequim Bay, finally places my marina at nearly the right place.
The entrance used to be off more than 100 yards.
Actually, in terms of VNS "bugginess", I found that MaxPro 10.x was a
bit less buggy than the last version of 9.x, but still plenty buggy,
at least as compared to CE.
John
On Sep 19, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Bob Peterson wrote:
John, I guess I have different results with MaxPro charts, at least
on the
West Coast of the U.S. I "cut my teeth" on Nobeltec back in VNS 7.0
and
learned to love it. Yes, it was not a true Windows application, as
I'm told
CE is, and that would have been nice. But I liked the Passport
Charts that
came with it.
The charts for the latest version, VNS MaxPro 10.x, are not as user-
friendly
nor as complete as those for the last VNS 9.x version I had. I
understand
that many have migrated back to 9.3 and other earlier versions, but
I'm told
it's because they have found problems with the current version of the
Nobeltec VNS program. I have found no such problems, it runs as
advertised.
But the charts aren't as complete or as accurate as the earlier
Passport
versions I liked.
Bob Peterson
"Lopaka Nane"
47' Lien Hwa CPMY
San Francisco
-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf
Of John
Marshall
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 5:28 PM
To: Ron Rogers
Cc: 'Milt Baker'; 'Trawlers and Trawlering List'
Subject: Re: T&T: Nobeltec and other choices
That would be my dream... opening Rose Point up to C-Map Max Pro-grade
of charts. At that point, it would be game over for Nobeltec.
If Boeing spins off Nobeltec (as is rumored) and keeps C-Map
cartography, I suppose that could happen.
John
.
All,
As the guy who started this thread I have been engrossed by the response,
and thank all who have dived in, even got some feedback on charts which
failed to gain serious input in my last enquiry. I would like to hear of
some of the major bugs which are being referred to, as I have come across
what appear to be some but as I am just getting to know the software it is
difficult to always decide if it's my set up or menu interpretation, or the
software?
On an interesting note I purchased the tides and currents upgrade which
gives a host of calculations, I tested one short passage yesterday, however
as I was getting used to the autopilot control it was not conclusive. Today
we return with spring tides and no real wind to interfere with the
prediction and it will be very interesting. I cannot see if the ETA
prediction during passage includes foul or otherwise currents or just works
on the SOG. I will try to compare today with my Raymarine ETA prediction.
I also find the auto route tool useful, providing you have already got legs
in various other routes which it picks up on, especially closer in. Of
course you have to go through the solution to check, and indeed on one it
did take me through a headland, but in principle it gets the donkey work
done leaving me to tweak.
Having had 9 years on my Raymarine 631 driving my AP20 I miss some features.
If I dodge a significant other and end up a reasonable amount off track, on
Raymarine I can just reset xtrack error and it adjusts the route, however
Admiral does not have that and wants to take large turns to get back onto
the route. I can see the logic close in but on a 100 mile leg it's no big
deal to swing onto a new track. However as I say I am still playing so maybe
there is a solution?
Look forward to the buggy answers.
Michael Slater
Falmouth UK
Michael,
With Nobeltec, as with CE, once you dodge something, its easiest just
to hit the Reset Crosstrack Error button and resume NAV mode directly
toward the next waypoint, presuming that path is clear of obstacles.
Otherwise, as you note, both programs interface with the AP to make
big turns to reacquire the old track.
It's more an autopilot issue than a Nav program issue, given in NAV
mode, the AP's goal is to minimize XTE, and the quickest way for it to
reduce XTE is to approach the old track at a sharp angle. I have had
some success in adjust the Nav Gain parameter on my autopilot to SOFT
to reduce this action, but Reset XTE (or might be called Cancel XTE)
in Nobeltec/CE is the simplest way. You will have to add that button
to one of your toolbars.
I've never found the tides and currents connection to the Nobeltec
planbook to be useful, and the ETA planner always tries to take me
through salt water rapids at peak current to minimize travel time,
which is worse than useless and dangerous. And no, the ETA projection
(on the NavBar) while underway does not take into account currents,
and only uses your current SOG and distance to go. In theory, the
planbook view of your route will take that into account when underway,
using current SOG only for the current leg and projected data with
currents for the upcoming legs, but it generally gives me wacky answers.
Never used Auto Route tool, so can't comment on it. I use the
standard route tool to manually plan routes.
Other bugs I know of are related to planbook not updating its leg
ETA's reliably when adjusting departure times or speeds when doing
planning.
Also if you attempt to cancel or select Next Waypoint when the system
is preparing to show an arrival at the current waypoint, you will hang
the system and have to shut down the program and restart it.
I've also had it crash and exit a few times when underway for no
apparent reason.
I've had it forget AIS targets and/or show ones in locations that the
ships have long vacated. Sometimes it refuses to show any AIS targets.
Solution is to shut down the program and restart.
In fact, whenever it seems to be getting weird, I shut it down and
restart it.
That said, I've learned to adjust to the bugs and not utilize buggy
features, no none of this bothers me too much now as I kind of expect
it and can deal with it. Frequency of having these issues, other than
the always present planbook weirdness, is about once a week when I'm
underway each day.
John
On Sep 20, 2009, at 12:28 AM, Michael Slater wrote:
All,
As the guy who started this thread I have been engrossed by the
response,
and thank all who have dived in, even got some feedback on charts
which
failed to gain serious input in my last enquiry. I would like to
hear of
some of the major bugs which are being referred to, as I have come
across
what appear to be some but as I am just getting to know the software
it is
difficult to always decide if it's my set up or menu interpretation,
or the
software?
On an interesting note I purchased the tides and currents upgrade
which
gives a host of calculations, I tested one short passage yesterday,
however
as I was getting used to the autopilot control it was not
conclusive. Today
we return with spring tides and no real wind to interfere with the
prediction and it will be very interesting. I cannot see if the ETA
prediction during passage includes foul or otherwise currents or
just works
on the SOG. I will try to compare today with my Raymarine ETA
prediction.
I also find the auto route tool useful, providing you have already
got legs
in various other routes which it picks up on, especially closer in. Of
course you have to go through the solution to check, and indeed on
one it
did take me through a headland, but in principle it gets the donkey
work
done leaving me to tweak.
Having had 9 years on my Raymarine 631 driving my AP20 I miss some
features.
If I dodge a significant other and end up a reasonable amount off
track, on
Raymarine I can just reset xtrack error and it adjusts the route,
however
Admiral does not have that and wants to take large turns to get back
onto
the route. I can see the logic close in but on a 100 mile leg it's
no big
deal to swing onto a new track. However as I say I am still playing
so maybe
there is a solution?
Look forward to the buggy answers.
Michael Slater
Falmouth UK
I will also add that the current projections for northern BC and
Alaska in Nobeltec are very poor. Also, the current and tide data that
Nobeltec shows on the NavBar is often very different from what it
shows you when you open the Tides and Currents program, and both are
different than Coastal Explorer or the printed tables in most cases.
I've had Tides and Currents predicting 3 knots and the Nobeltec NavBar
projecting 7 knots for the same place at same time, and both were wrong.
When it comes to Nobeltec, I only use its tides and currents data to
get a general quantification as to likely direction, estimated slack
and small, medium or big currents at other times, but don't trust the
details for actually navigating any potentially dangerous area. That's
what eyeballs are for. In many cases, I find the currents in large
channels in Alaska were going the opposite direction the program
predicts most hours of the day.
Also, in Canada, you have big differences within Tide and Currents
itself as to whether you are using the "British Columbia NOAA"
database or the CHS tide stations. The CHS stuff is much better than
the "NOAA" stuff, which you select based on the geographical regions
on the left scrolling window in Tides and Currents. Basically, there
are two ways to get Canadian data from the program, and the NOAA
option has many more locations to choose from in Canada than the CHS
one, but the data is mostly bogus.
I'll probably think of more bugs later, but these two emails are the
ones that come to mind now.
John
On Sep 20, 2009, at 12:28 AM, Michael Slater wrote:
All,
As the guy who started this thread I have been engrossed by the
response,
and thank all who have dived in, even got some feedback on charts
which
failed to gain serious input in my last enquiry. I would like to
hear of
some of the major bugs which are being referred to, as I have come
across
what appear to be some but as I am just getting to know the software
it is
difficult to always decide if it's my set up or menu interpretation,
or the
software?
On an interesting note I purchased the tides and currents upgrade
which
gives a host of calculations, I tested one short passage yesterday,
however
as I was getting used to the autopilot control it was not
conclusive. Today
we return with spring tides and no real wind to interfere with the
prediction and it will be very interesting. I cannot see if the ETA
prediction during passage includes foul or otherwise currents or
just works
on the SOG. I will try to compare today with my Raymarine ETA
prediction.
I also find the auto route tool useful, providing you have already
got legs
in various other routes which it picks up on, especially closer in. Of
course you have to go through the solution to check, and indeed on
one it
did take me through a headland, but in principle it gets the donkey
work
done leaving me to tweak.
Having had 9 years on my Raymarine 631 driving my AP20 I miss some
features.
If I dodge a significant other and end up a reasonable amount off
track, on
Raymarine I can just reset xtrack error and it adjusts the route,
however
Admiral does not have that and wants to take large turns to get back
onto
the route. I can see the logic close in but on a 100 mile leg it's
no big
deal to swing onto a new track. However as I say I am still playing
so maybe
there is a solution?
Look forward to the buggy answers.
Michael Slater
Falmouth UK