I consider saving WWV/WWVH/WWVB to be ON topic.  They may not be as
precise as some on this list like to achieve, but they are publicly
available methods of time dissemination.  I am very concerned that
factions of NIST consider that this should no longer be part of their
mission.

David N1HAC

On 9/1/18 9:07 AM, David C. Partridge wrote:

On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:15 AM David G. McGaw
david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu wrote:

1. WWV* systems are not critical to anything I have found other than
   WWVB being used to keep "atomic clocks" in sync and updated for DST.
   I've asked in many places but other than two recent papers that used
   WWV HF signals with the Long Wavelength Array to do some ionospheric
   measurements I can't find any evidence that the signals are critical
   to anything in science.

2. Anyone that needs accurate time to within a few ms of UTC uses
   NTP.  Anyone who thinks they need more precision than that can look at
   PTP (usually deciding that NTP is plenty good once they see what it
   will cost them for PTP).  All current consumer operating systems (OS
   X, iOS, Android, Windows, etc) have some form of NTP client built in.

3. Is no one familiar with the US federal budgeting process?  Really?
   The executive branch (Commerce is a cabinet-level department therein)
   submits to the legislative branch the budget for what they claim they
   will need for the upcoming fiscal year.  This is made up from
   estimates of each cabinet member (and others) who get their numbers
   from the various institutions within their silos (e.g., NIST under
   Commerce).  Because no department head wants their budget cut, they
   ensure that items put up for "cutting" are ones that the public is
   most likely to complain (to congress) about.  A quick google didn't
   tell me when the executive branch last submitted a budget that was
   actually in balance but I'm sure it's been 35 years at least despite
   the alleged cutting.  And it doesn't matter because the executive
   budget is routinely ignored by the body that is actually in charge of
   spending, congress.

4. I don't think I've ever seen an NTP server that used WWV* as their
   reference clock (it's listed in the output of the query command)
   because GPS is ubiquitous.  "Yeah, but Carrington!"  I am not certain,
   but given that in the US, the Navstar GPS is a US military system run
   by the US military for US military purposes (which happens to have a
   signal available to civilians) that the designers were not only aware
   of solar physics but used that awareness to make the GPS system as
   resilient as they could to the potential effects of CMEs and flares.
   So for me, the "GPS COULD FAIL!" argument does nothing.

I'd rather read about Earth tides affecting time measurements.  Or
proper care and feeding of your Cs oscillator.

--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!

On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, David G. McGaw david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu
wrote:

I think it is still on-topic for the following reasons:

1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time reference.
   You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20 shortwave
   receiver.  No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most things
   that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to come to
   dinner.

2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the the
   ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, 5, 10,
   15, 20, and 25 MHz.

I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant because, for
people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the most
convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful.

YMMV.

--

Brian Lloyd
706 Flightline
Spring Branch, TX 78070
brian@lloyd.aero
+1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)

I’m concerned with the science

the WWV/WWVB stations provide invaluable information about the condition of the ionosphere with a baseline of DECADES of data.

Also dont forget that pre PSK the NTP daemon in unix had a interface for Spectracom WWVB receivers and any retrofitted with a D-PSK’er still provide network time within all national banking regulations.

As to GPS Jamming well I think its essential that sophisticated GPS users like this community educate decision makers in their sphere of influence just how FRAGILE a system GPS is.    I realize some dont want to hear this but its essential that we as a technological society create backup systems using different techology bases to deliver precise time and frequency in an economical fashion because not everyone can afford a couple of 5071’s.

As to only ‘hams’ using them I dont think many hams unless they are running vintage Collins gear with a WWV position on the bandswitch to align the PTO,  even know about WWV.

Most of the WWV users  I know personally are atmospheric scientists, military and other government users.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Sep 1, 2018, at 2:37 PM, Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.aero wrote:

On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, David G. McGaw david.g.mcgaw@dartmouth.edu
wrote:

I think it is still on-topic for the following reasons:

1. In many parts of the world, WWV is still a convenient time reference.
   You can get human-accurate time with nothing more than a $20 shortwave
   receiver.  No, it is not time-nuts accurate but it will do for most things
   that people do, including celestial navigation and knowing when to come to
   dinner.

2. It is a stable RF source for people monitoring changes in the the
   ionosphere. Whatever else it is, we KNOW they are emitting ON 2.5, 5, 10,
   15, 20, and 25 MHz.

I also consider the discussion of GPS jamming to be relevant because, for
people who DO want/need time-nuts accuracy, GPS is far and away the most
convenient reference. Knowing how it might fail is useful.

YMMV.

--

Brian Lloyd
706 Flightline
Spring Branch, TX 78070
brian@lloyd.aero
+1.210.802-8FLY (1.210.802-8359)

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To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.

With respect, Scott, EVERY ham knows about WWV.

On Saturday, September 1, 2018, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:

--
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu

Try receiving wwv or wwvb with your HP3586 SLV and determine precisely
where f(o) is.
It's difficult, ...as propagation and atmospheric conditions will
unwittingly prevail.
This ham prefers my gpsdo's, or my cesium.
Don
N5CID

---================================
On Sat, 2018-09-01 at 17:04 -0400, William H. Fite wrote:

Hi

I most certainly have seen an NTP server that ran off of WWVB and relayed
the result to the internet. The fun part was that they had entered the “delay”
number into their config file with the wrong sign on it (or there was a bug in
the NTP code at that time). The result was that they were …. errr …. a bit
off time.

So yes, you can hook NTP into WWVB, it has been done. It is a way (if you get
the signs right ….) to get into millisecond(s) level accuracy.

Bob

On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 7:25 PM Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

I didn't say it COULD not -- W3HCF and his group didn't miss much in
the code -- but what I'm saying is that in 20+ years of dinking with
NTP as part of my job, I HAVE not seen any evidence of WWV being used
as a "refclock".  Certainly not in the last decade.  Maybe there were
many of them when Dr Mills first published the standards and reference
implementation back in the 1980s but not now.

I want to be outraged over this cut but until I have a coherent,
evidence-based argument in favor of keeping the stations, I'm going to
keep my powder dry.

--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!

Some stats in historic NTP surveys show that WWV and WWVB based refclocks
were relevant 20+ years ago:

1997 - Mills survey - 47 GPS and GOES vs 74 WWV and WWVB.

1999 - Minar MIT survey - 129 GPS and GOES vs 24 WWV and WWVB.

In those two years it is pretty obvious the world was swinging from LF and
HF refclocks to satellite based refclocks (and also obvious that GOES was
declining while GPS was on the upswing.)

As recently as 10 years ago I was running a WWV-based Stratum 1 - it's
there in the 2005 Brazillian NTP survey data.

It would be much easier to make a case for continuing WWV service if there
were commercial WWV based refclocks on the market and used in
commercial/government applications. 10 years ago I could find WWV time
clocks in industrial automation catalogs but today, nothing. I'm sure
there's some installed base.

Tim N3QE

On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 9:08 AM Peter Laws plaws0@gmail.com wrote: