TWL: Re: trawler-world-list V5 #134
In a message dated 11/12/01 12:02:09 AM, Bob Austin writes:
<< What Georgs is experiencing is that the boat speed has been down to 3.8
knots
at RPM that by the calculations should be giving them closer to 6.5 knots:
Thus the fuel consumption is more than expected, the range is less and
progress slower than the predictions. >>
Georgs writes in his log for day 8 that the active fins have been turned
off to increase range. That means that they have just eliminated the
effectiveness of about $30K worth of equipment. The energy to stabilize the
boat with either active stabilizers or paravanes has to come from somehere -
and the somewhere is the forward motion of the boat. Hence some of the higher
than expected fuel use. There is no such a thing as a free lunch!
My back of envelope calculations show that a boat roughly the size and
displacement of the N40 should take 25.7 hp to travel at 5.8 kts. in "mill
pond" conditions. The fuel consumption should be be about 1.54 gal/hr. The
actual fuel consumption of 1.85 gal/hr corresponds to about 30.8 hp. Hence 5
hp is being used to stabilize the boat and deal with less than millpond sea
states. Typically a slow speed displacement trawler doesn't use much energy
fighting moderate waves since the retarding force is compensated by the
accelerating force on the reverse slope. In that portion of the Hawaii run,
the wind is astern. We may conclude that the stabilizers take about 1/6 th of
the generated power. Naturally this would shorten the range by a comparable
amount.
A small trawler travelling at slow speed is subject to just about the same
weather delays as a comparably sized sailboat. Trip planning and the
unpredictability of ETAs is much the same. Bob is right on!
Larry Z
Larry Z
Well, I've posted a few times about the boat we are interested in. It's
offered by Oviatt Marine and we went to Ft Lauderdale to look at it this
weekend.
We are going to put in an offer, I guess, but wow, the only boats we've ever
bought were "for sale by owner". The contract for the offer is knocking my
socks off!
I'd like to know if anyone has any suggestions for the wording of this part:
"This sale of this vessel is subject to:"
We want to be as "wide" as possible here so we can back out if we see
anything we don't like. So a survey and sea trail..... is there a best way
to word this?
Also the contract clearly states that if we do a sea trial the boat is under
our risk and expense for the duration of the sea trail and we will
monetarily assume all risk and expense... So if the boat sinks or something
does that mean it's mine?
Do I need a lawyer that specializes in things marine for this contract? If
so, does anyone have a name?
Once I get into the legal stuff I'm very nervous.
Susan
bailey@cape.com
The Naiad active fin stabilizers on my boat give
me three options: off, on, and centered. There
is no doubt that the on position must use the most
energy and therefore the most fuel (although there
may be some slight compensation in increased
efficiency moving through the water because of
reduced roll). My question is: which position offers
the greatest fuel efficiency, off or centered? In the
centered position the system is still working and,
therefore, using energy, but in the off position might
the fins not droop down and therefore cause more
drag?
Leland Robinson
"Katahdin" (42-foot, Seaton-designed, trawler)
Chattanooga, Tennessee
At 11:28 AM 11/12/01, you wrote:
the greatest fuel efficiency, off or centered? In the
centered position the system is still working and,
therefore, using energy, but in the off position might
the fins not droop down and therefore cause more
drag?
The fins should be centered and then turned off, if you want to minimize drag.
If thru water speed drops low enough, then the stabilizers are nearly
useless, but maybe don't have much drag either. At about 5 knots the speed
maybe too low to be effective.
As far as running out of fuel is concerned.
The Nordhavn should be able to get twice the range at 4 knots water speed
as at 6.
That's only a rough estimate, but it means that the last 100 miles could be
covered with about 12-15 gallons of fuel, under worst case.
I have tried this sort of problem in reality and made it work on one
occasion which I prefer not to repeat. This was a twin screw boat, which we
slowed to a crawl, turned off one engine and limped into the nearest dock.
The fuel tank was so empty, that the algae at the bottom of the tank were
screaming for mercy.
Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.
Mike,
You wrote that the fins "should be centered and then
turned off, if you want to minimize drag." But will they
stay centered? Won't they move if not manually locked?
Leland Robinson
"Katahdin" (42-foot, Seaton-designed, trawler)
Chattanooga, Tennessee
On Monday, November 12, 2001, at 11:32 AM, Michael Maurice wrote:
The Nordhaven should be able to get twice the range at 4 knots water
speed as at 6.
Mike,
That is true as per good Robert Beebe but only if the reduction is in
"through the water" speed and is due to a reduction in RPM. Slight
reductions in "through the water" speeds due to a reduction of RPM and
resultant "work" done by the engine can result in a significantly lower
rate of fuel burn. If the speed reduction is due to adverse conditions
and engine speed is unchanged then the distance traveled "over the
ground" will be reduced per unit of fuel. I think that there is
considerable confusion on this issue.
On our boat in reasonable conditions we run at 1800 RPM with a resultant
fuel burn of about three gallons per hour and an "over the bottom" speed
of 7.5 knots. If I reduce the RPM to 1600 then our "over the bottom"
speed drops to about 6.5 knots and our fuel burn to less than 2 gallons
per hour with a significant increase in range.
In heavy weather our "through the water" and "over the bottom" speed are
both reduced while fuel consumption per "over the bottom" mile will go
up, especially if engine RPM are not reduced. This is even more true in
head seas. When we crossed the Bay of Panama we were taking large seas
on the port bow and our "over the ground" speed was reduced to less than
four knots even though the engine RPM were unchanged. To reduce strain
on us and the boat we cut the RPM to 1600 and our speed fell to three
knots. It made for a very long night 'til we could hide behind Isla San
Jose. Fortunately we had no problems with fuel quantity. We always plan
on at least 20% fuel reserve.
At sea with no place to hide you just have to keep on taking a pounding
or lie to a sea anchor. Neither situation is helpful in making a
schedule. I'm sure you know all of this better than I.
Dolph & Bev McCranie
M V The Right Whale
FINS MUST BE CENTERED WHILE DOCKING!
The backwash from the props in reverse can catch the fins and cause them to
deflect the water flow. Centering the fins forces them to stay in place.
Time and again, I have found myself unable to walk the boat sideways into
the dock. Each time, after centering the fins, the problem goes away.
I have twins; do not know if the effect is the same on singles.
Bob
R C Smith Jr
M/V Susan Marie
Hatteras 58 LRC
Chesapeake Bay
There are so many issues to this boat purchase. sigh. It's a full time job
trying to figure them all out.
Ok we currently own a home in MA. we are going to sell it and move aboard
the boat as full time liveaboards. We most likely will still own the house
when we buy the boat (not sure if any of this makes a difference). I don't
know what our state charges for tax on a boat purchase but knowing our
lawmakers I bet it's a lot.
The broker told us that if we buy the boat (its in Florida) we have so many
days to get it out of Florida otherwise we will have to pay Florida sales
tax of 6% (this adds up to a big pot of cash) and we will have to keep it
out of Florida for 6 months.
I have been told that South Carolina has a maximum boat tax of $300. So can
I just keep the boat there for 6 months and end up only paying $300. worth
of tax as opposed to the $20,000.+ I'd pay in Florida. that $20,000. could
come in handy.
How do I find out what the rules are in each state and if I can qualify for
them?
Susan Sheehan
bailey@cape.com
Check out this site. It lists all states and requirements. Remember if you
register (document) in one state and use in another, you may fall under the
'use' tax. FL and MD are big on this. Good luck!
http://www.boatus.com/gov/f9.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Starfish Design" bailey@cape.com
To: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:35 AM
Subject: TWL: sales tax
There are so many issues to this boat purchase. sigh. It's a full time
job
trying to figure them all out.
Ok we currently own a home in MA. we are going to sell it and move aboard
the boat as full time liveaboards. We most likely will still own the
house
when we buy the boat (not sure if any of this makes a difference). I
don't
know what our state charges for tax on a boat purchase but knowing our
lawmakers I bet it's a lot.
The broker told us that if we buy the boat (its in Florida) we have so
many
days to get it out of Florida otherwise we will have to pay Florida sales
tax of 6% (this adds up to a big pot of cash) and we will have to keep it
out of Florida for 6 months.
I have been told that South Carolina has a maximum boat tax of $300. So
can
I just keep the boat there for 6 months and end up only paying $300. worth
of tax as opposed to the $20,000.+ I'd pay in Florida. that $20,000.
could
come in handy.
How do I find out what the rules are in each state and if I can qualify
for
Subject: TWL: sales tax
The broker told us that if we buy the boat (its in Florida) we have so
many
days to get it out of Florida otherwise we will have to pay Florida sales
tax of 6% (this adds up to a big pot of cash) and we will have to keep it
out of Florida for 6 months.
True Story: the names have been changed or omitted to protect the guilty.
A person with whom I am well acquainted purchased a trawler this year. He
paid cash. He was the fourth owner of this circa 1980's boat and the boat
got it's fourth name change. It is, and always has been, a USCG documented
vessel. My friend dutifully went to the appropriate state agency office with
his checkbook prepared to pay them $7000+ for sales tax. When the clerk put
the hull number in the computer, it showed the boat being registered to the
original owner and that there was a mortgage outstanding to a major bank.
These most recent records in the state's computer were from the mid 1980's.
The agency was unable to accept the sales tax payment and re-register the
boat because this lien was shown as outstanding. Disappointed at being
spurned in his efforts to pay the state all this money, my friend left and
has never been back.
It seems the two subsequent (1988 & 1996) owners failed to pay the tax and
register the boat with the state. The original owner never bothered to tell
the state the lien had been satisfied. Since hull license numbers are not
required on documented boats there is no system of checks to enable the
state to identify tax violating boats (such as they can with licensed
vehicles). Additionally, as the law is written there are late penalties
which culminate in a maximum, one time, 10% penalty after a specific time
passes but with no time limit after that. Thus, my friend faces a maximum
$700+ late fee if he ever decides, or is forced, to pay the tax...no matter
when.
Moral of the story: before paying sales tax, determine if the state even
knows of the sale and has any means of enforcement. Find out if the previous
owner paid the tax when he purchased it. What are the penalties for not
paying weighed against the chance of getting caught?
Potential lecturers on the duties of citizenship should keep in mind that my
friend had every intention of paying the tax only to be thwarted by
bureaucratic bungling and a system with no teeth. He is not a scofflaw, nor
a fool.
Zeke Anderson
somewhere in Texas